Would we really be giving up too much? A one trick cheapshot artist, overrated defensive prospect, and a soft 3rd line center who will command north of $4million this offseason as a RFA? I would argue that Vancouver would turn this deal down. Besides, you have to include Sutter and Neal for the cap #'s to work. Its about maximizing your cap $.

Also, is Kesler really that fragile? Looks like he plays almost full seasons to me?

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/players/3331/
- 87_71_11_29

Look at his injury history.

Also, whether you like James Neal or not - obviously you don't with your comments, a young forward who scores 30-40 goals a year making 5 million don't grow on trees. I DON'T like the thought of spending 5 million on a third line center, which is exactly what Kesler would be in Pittsburgh. You have other missing pieces.

Sutter isn't worth 4 million. However, get the kid some capable forwards and he can play a good game. Noticeable difference between him centering Glass and Pyatt and him with Bennett/Stempy and Gibbons wouldn't you say?

no, they aren't. I take Doughty, Keith, Weber, OEL, Chara, Kronwall, Pieterangelo off the top of my head over each one of them.
- Oneonta Penguin

i dont know. all of those guys you listed are the best of the best. but that doesnt necessarily preclude subban, karlsson, and letang himself from being considered good defensemen.

no, they aren't. I take Doughty, Keith, Weber, OEL, Chara, Kronwall, Pieterangelo off the top of my head over each one of them.
- Oneonta Penguin

I mean, those are all great defensemen too, but I'm stunned you think neither Karlsson nor Subban are even good defensemen.

i dont know. all of those guys you listed are the best of the best. but that doesnt necessarily preclude subban, karlsson, and letang himself from being considered good defensemen.
- stayinthefnnet

They are good offensive minded defensemen. Take the point totals away, would you consider them elite on the defensive end? I wouldn't.

I mean, those are all great defensemen too, but I'm stunned you think neither Karlsson nor Subban are even good defensemen.
- BulliesPhan87

Take away the offensive numbers, I don't think they are close defensively to the others I mentioned. I've seen more Letang and Karlsson mistakes end up in the back of the next moreso than anyone else.

i dont know. all of those guys you listed are the best of the best. but that doesnt necessarily preclude subban, karlsson, and letang himself from being considered good defensemen.
- stayinthefnnet

Yeah... Karlsson and Subban aren't great defensive defensemen, but they are at least average in their own end, and the fact that they have the ability to skate or play the puck so well out of their end, makes them even better defensively. If they get the puck, 90% of the time their team is getting out of their zone and transitioning to offense. Letang is the same way.

I'm more than willing to give Letang a full off season and see where he's at in the fall.

Yeah... Karlsson and Subban aren't great defensive defensemen, but they are at least average in their own end, and the fact that they have the ability to skate or play the puck so well out of their end, makes them even better defensively. If they get the puck, 90% of the time their team is getting out of their zone and transitioning to offense. Letang is the same way.

I'm more than willing to give Letang a full off season and see where he's at in the fall.
- rival22

Correct me if I'm wrong ... you are all about giving up Fleury based on his play-off failures; but you are giving Letang a pass even though his play-off failures are pretty on par with Fleury's if not worse.

They are good offensive minded defensemen. Take the point totals away, would you consider them elite on the defensive end? I wouldn't.
- Oneonta Penguin

no, but like it or not, the offensive contributions do still count in their evaluations at their positions. you need guys like that to win. while the truly elite guys can provide a good blend of both, a player not being elite in his own end doesnt necessarily preclude him from being considered even "pretty good" overall.

Correct me if I'm wrong ... you are all about giving up Fleury based on his play-off failures; but you are giving Letang a pass even though his play-off failures are pretty on par with Fleury's if not worse.
- Oneonta Penguin

now, this is where i will be more inclined to agree.

Malkin & Fleury for Kopitar & Quick

Correct me if I'm wrong ... you are all about giving up Fleury based on his play-off failures; but you are giving Letang a pass even though his play-off failures are pretty on par with Fleury's if not worse.
- Oneonta Penguin

Enough with the Letang hate Oneonta. You have nothing good to say about the guy. He's already paying the price and being benched on the PP. Maybe this will have a good effect on him.

Malkin & Fleury for Kopitar & Quick
- cap1681

i will rickshaw the players to and from their respective destinations myself.

Malkin & Fleury for Kopitar & Quick
- cap1681

I wouldn't do this deal.

Look at his injury history.

Also, whether you like James Neal or not - obviously you don't with your comments, a young forward who scores 30-40 goals a year making 5 million don't grow on trees. I DON'T like the thought of spending 5 million on a third line center, which is exactly what Kesler would be in Pittsburgh. You have other missing pieces.

Sutter isn't worth 4 million. However, get the kid some capable forwards and he can play a good game. Noticeable difference between him centering Glass and Pyatt and him with Bennett/Stempy and Gibbons wouldn't you say?
- Oneonta Penguin

Yes I agree on Sutter line mates but still, do you want to pay him $4 million while you're trying to find out what he can do? Would you rather have Sutter at $4 mill or Kesler at $5 mill? I know who I am picking.

Also, without moving pieces, how do you propose we get quality 3rd line guys wo trading Neal/Malkin, etc..? Our defensive depth would likely be your answer. Except that wont work with the cap. Shero is going to have to move some $ out in order to get back what he wants. Since Sid, Malkin, Letang aren't likely going anywhere, that leaves Neal. The cap is indeed going up. However, Letangs raise kicks in and so does Malkins which takes up most of the cap increase.

And full disclosure...I don't like Neal (too inconsistent, to cheap, and he's not a power forward..if he's not scoring, he bring nothing else to the table...never win with that guy) but I think he does have value for the various reasons you describe.

Finally, Kesler on the 3rd line? I think if Pens fans should understand anything at this point, its that your 3rd line matters. You have to put $ into it otherwise you have the 2013-2014 Pens.

Enough with the Letang hate Oneonta. You have nothing good to say about the guy. He's already paying the price and being benched on the PP. Maybe this will have a good effect on him.
- Orpik44

not to speak for anyone, but its not all blind hate. there are a lot of rational points behind the notion of trading him. he is another one like fleury, i love the guy. but it might be better overall to move on. with fleury, it might just be better because i think both parties need to start fresh. letang still has a lot of merit as a player. but when you really think about it, unless he manages to take a big time step forward in his game mentally, its hard to overlook these factors.

Yes I agree on Sutter line mates but still, do you want to pay him $4 million while you're trying to find out what he can do? Would you rather have Sutter at $4 mill or Kesler at $5 mill? I know who I am picking.

Also, without moving pieces, how do you propose we get quality 3rd line guys wo trading Neal/Malkin, etc..? Our defensive depth would likely be your answer. Except that wont work with the cap. Shero is going to have to move some $ out in order to get back what he wants. Since Sid, Malkin, Letang aren't likely going anywhere, that leaves Neal. The cap is indeed going up. However, Letangs raise kicks in and so does Malkins which takes up most of the cap increase.

And full disclosure...I don't like Neal (too inconsistent, to cheap, and he's not a power forward..if he's not scoring, he bring nothing else to the table...never win with that guy) but I think he does have value for the various reasons you describe.

Finally, Kesler on the 3rd line? I think if Pens fans should understand anything at this point, its that your 3rd line matters. You have to put $ into it otherwise you have the 2013-2014 Pens.
- 87_71_11_29

the one thing i will say about neal, is it is ridiculously hard to replace the production you get out of him for the money he costs. the fact he is cost controlled at a very reasonable rate for 4 more years, makes him a pretty valuable asset.

not to speak for anyone, but its not all blind hate. there are a lot of rational points behind the notion of trading him. he is another one like fleury, i love the guy. but it might be better overall to move on. with fleury, it might just be better because i think both parties need to start fresh. letang still has a lot of merit as a player. but when you really think about it, unless he manages to take a big time step forward in his game mentally, its hard to overlook these factors.
- stayinthefnnet

I think it's hasty to do much in the area of moving guys once or still considered "core" if there is also the considerable potential to change coaching. Because with that, comes a change in system and strategy. Guys that fit one system might not fit another and moving a guy like Letang or Malkin or even Fleury, you might want to see what a different system does for them. Unless you're planning to keep Dan. But changing both the system and the moving parts within it seems like trying to do too much juggling all at once and hoping all the balls fall just right.

the one thing i will say about neal, is it is ridiculously hard to replace the production you get out of him for the money he costs. the fact he is cost controlled at a very reasonable rate for 4 more years, makes him a pretty valuable asset.
- stayinthefnnet

But it also makes him even more valuable in return assets to teams looking to add those 30-40 goals per year because of his cost certainty. Not really in favor of trading him, but just pointing that out. His value increases to both parties.

the one thing i will say about neal, is it is ridiculously hard to replace the production you get out of him for the money he costs. the fact he is cost controlled at a very reasonable rate for 4 more years, makes him a pretty valuable asset.
- stayinthefnnet

I totally agree with your comment about Neal and his salary. 35 goals for $5mill is a good deal. Which is why I think he can still get you good value for a trade.

But, will he ever help you win that silver trophy? That's my issue.

To me, its simply about exchanging skill for grit. I am willing to give up 20 goals in the regular season for a better chance at post-season success.

Answer this truly....who would you rather have dressed for you in a game 7? Neal or Kesler?

For a playoff series against Boston, who would you rather have?

Kassian/Kesler or Neal/Sutter/Despres?

- I would not trade Letang. Sure he's had issues both on and off ice for the past few season but in today's NHL d-men aren't even hitting their prime until their late 20's/early 30's. His potential upside is limitless and we've already seen flashes of it. Also, he's been paired with Scuderi who we all can agree has been having a terrible season.

- Fingers can be pointed at a lot of people for the collapses and failures of the past few seasons. How much goes to Shero though? Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling for his head. He stacked the deck for nearly nothing last season but was it necessary? How much of a leash has he given Bylsma with his construction of the team. Drafting guys like Depres, Harrington, and Samuelsson along with acquiring Dumoulin were all good moves but yet this roster shows no push towards youth other than Maatta. IMHO some of the best hockey this team played was back in December when these guys were up because of neccessity.

I think Vancouver would be all over a player like Neal, they want a sniper winger.

I would focus on something like Neal for Kesler....

From Pitt's vantage... Kes is a bit older yes... but he plays to win, he doesn't hot dog it with one arm on his stick and feet in cement like #18. #17 can play wing or centre, and not Jordan Staal wing, Kesler is good as a winger.

I would do a straight up deal for them. I do see Kesler having more value, Kes is signed for 2 years and Neal for 4, so Van is getting a plus there.
- nelson911

No offense, but I think that idea is crazy. Trading away a young 40 goal winger with a long term contract for an older center (30 next year) with two more years of control.

This team IMO needs to get younger. Especially on wing. Kunitz and Duper will be 35 next year. If they're thinking of resigning Stempy or JJ....again, guys that are 30+.

I totally agree with your comment about Neal and his salary. 35 goals for $5mill is a good deal. Which is why I think he can still get you good value for a trade.

But, will he ever help you win that silver trophy? That's my issue.

To me, its simply about exchanging skill for grit. I am willing to give up 20 goals in the regular season for a better chance at post-season success.

Answer this truly....who would you rather have dressed for you in a game 7? Neal or Kesler?

For a playoff series against Boston, who would you rather have?

Kassian/Kesler or Neal/Sutter/Despres?
- 87_71_11_29

my backreading has been spotty? is that the trade you offered? im aboard the kesler train, if he can realistically be acquired. the injury history and salary dont deter me. but that deal i dont know if i could do.

- I would not trade Letang. Sure he's had issues both on and off ice for the past few season but in today's NHL d-men aren't even hitting their prime until their late 20's/early 30's. His potential upside is limitless and we've already seen flashes of it. Also, he's been paired with Scuderi who we all can agree has been having a terrible season.

- Fingers can be pointed at a lot of people for the collapses and failures of the past few seasons. How much goes to Shero though? Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling for his head. He stacked the deck for nearly nothing last season but was it necessary? How much of a leash has he given Bylsma with his construction of the team. Drafting guys like Depres, Harrington, and Samuelsson along with acquiring Dumoulin were all good moves but yet this roster shows no push towards youth other than Maatta. IMHO some of the best hockey this team played was back in December when these guys were up because of neccessity.
- Incredible Malk

letang's actual on ice play is only one of the variables im considering in wanting to trade him. its not simply like a lets purge the team of him.

No offense, but I think that idea is crazy. Trading away a young 40 goal winger with a long term contract for an older center (30 next year) with two more years of control.

This team IMO needs to get younger. Especially on wing. Kunitz and Duper will be 35 next year. If they're thinking of resigning Stempy or JJ....again, guys that are 30+.
- madmike71

i do like the idea of getting younger. its just very, very hard to practically implement. if stempy or jussi can be signed to realistic, shorter term deals. i am very happy to have them back.

I totally agree with your comment about Neal and his salary. 35 goals for $5mill is a good deal. Which is why I think he can still get you good value for a trade.

But, will he ever help you win that silver trophy? That's my issue.

To me, its simply about exchanging skill for grit. I am willing to give up 20 goals in the regular season for a better chance at post-season success.

Answer this truly....who would you rather have dressed for you in a game 7? Neal or Kesler?

For a playoff series against Boston, who would you rather have?

Kassian/Kesler or Neal/Sutter/Despres?
- 87_71_11_29

So you think this team would be better off getting older?