I'm talking on the Leafs.
- ThePresident

Phil Kessel........ JVR....... Kadri..... Bozak.

I'm talking on the Leafs.
- ThePresident

Can't play that one. Leafs don't have that quality of players to develop.

What is your point? I'm not blaming RC, but obviously....RC can't do much unless he has 2 Hall of Famer defenders on his back end. Trotz brought those guys along from when they were just getting into the league. He developed them correctly. Would it not be the perfect scenario for guys such as Rielly, Gardiner, Bernier, Kadri, etc....as well as our prospects. My point is, he actually brings the Predators youth along and turns them into full time NHLers. Randy Carlyle cannot do that correctly.
- ThePresident

Babcock must suck then since he needed 5+ current/future HOF's to win the cup.

nonis seems to be the type of gm that sets the team during the off season and then rides it out until the next off season

not a good way to run a team
- Flyfreaky

Problem is that the Leafs are not very deep. Can't make trades for especially defenseman during the season. Very very very hard thing to do. And you would have to overpay for them at the time of the season.

Babcock must suck then since he needed 5+ current/future HOF's to win the cup.
- Tumbleweed

Babcocks approach to the Olympics was undeniably the biggest stroke of genius in hockey.

Weber and Suter will both be Hall of Famers. To think otherwise is silly.

As for the forwards..... is it they didn't have much? Or they didn't develop much??

After 15 years, you'd think he would have developed ONE, just ONE decent forward.



- faceto27

Suter will not be a hall of famer...why would he?

Weber..ok

I'm not disputing if they will be or not, the point is....they are no where close to being Pronger and Neidermayer....we're talking about arguably the two best defenders of our time along with Lidstrom.

Problem is that the Leafs are not very deep. Can't make trades for especially defenseman during the season. Very very very hard thing to do. And you would have to overpay for them at the time of the season.
- faceto27

Why do you have to overpay? No one is suggesting a home run but just a culture change.

Why do you have to overpay? No one is suggesting a home run but just a culture change.
- honesthockey

I just think the Leafs management have a more realistic approach than they will publicly admit. This team was going nowhere in the playoffs even with a couple of upgrades on the defense. I believe they are gearing up to get serious in about two seasons time. We all knew it was going to take a very long time to undo the damage the JFJ did. There was absoutley no talent in the pipe line when they took over. Its just now starting to unfold. Need to give Nonis a couple of more years.

I just think the Leafs management have a more realistic approach than they will publicly admit. This team was going nowhere in the playoffs even with a couple of upgrades on the defense. I believe they are gearing up to get serious in about two seasons time. We all knew it was going to take a very long time to undo the damage the JFJ did. There was absoutley no talent in the pipe line when they took over. Its just now starting to unfold. Need to give Nonis a couple of more years.
- faceto27

Then start pointing the ship in the right direction. Are you suggesting he just let it slide this year?

Suter will not be a hall of famer...why would he?

Weber..ok

I'm not disputing if they will be or not, the point is....they are no where close to being Pronger and Neidermayer....we're talking about arguably the two best defenders of our time along with Lidstrom.
- ThePresident

Betcha if you asked any NHL forward in the league today, they would tell you that Suter is gonig to be in the Hall of Fame.

Have you ever watched him play?? Not being condescending, i'm serious. The guy plays 30 mins a night against the best forwards in the league.

Babcocks approach to the Olympics was undeniably the biggest stroke of genius in hockey.
- honesthockey

To win the cup, you need a great coach and great players. Babcock is obviously a great coach. I hope the sarcasm came through on my last comment.

Problem is that the Leafs are not very deep. Can't make trades for especially defenseman during the season. Very very very hard thing to do. And you would have to overpay for them at the time of the season.
- faceto27

it's not just about trades for trades sake, but making some moves that would improve the culture of the room when you sense that things aren't meshing

reimer was a major issue and problem that should have been moved

Betcha if you asked any NHL forward in the league today, they would tell you that Suter is gonig to be in the Hall of Fame.

Have you ever watched him play?? Not being condescending, i'm serious. The guy plays 30 mins a night against the best forwards in the league.
- faceto27

Yes, but he is not even comparable to a Pronger or Neidermayer.

What has he done to be considered HOF worthy?

Played well?

I just think the Leafs management have a more realistic approach than they will publicly admit. This team was going nowhere in the playoffs even with a couple of upgrades on the defense. I believe they are gearing up to get serious in about two seasons time. We all knew it was going to take a very long time to undo the damage the JFJ did. There was absoutley no talent in the pipe line when they took over. Its just now starting to unfold. Need to give Nonis a couple of more years.
- faceto27

What talent is there in the pipeline now? I see 4th liners and bottom pairing defensemen so far.

To win the cup, you need a great coach and great players. Babcock is obviously a great coach. I hope the sarcasm came through on my last comment.
- Tumbleweed

It did. I just had to gush about how a real team looks.

Then start pointing the ship in the right direction. Are you suggesting he just let it slide this year?
- honesthockey

Truthfully, the Leafs greatest weakness is probably the most difficult area to fix.

Good defenseman are the rarest commodity. Hopefully he can address that issue this off season by trading someone like Gardiner. Now we are a postion of strength with PMD's. Time to move one out to get better in another area. I liked that he got our goalie of the future last off season.

Suter will not be a hall of famer...why would he?

Weber..ok

I'm not disputing if they will be or not, the point is....they are no where close to being Pronger and Neidermayer....we're talking about arguably the two best defenders of our time along with Lidstrom.
- ThePresident

Marginalizing a coach's Stanley Cup victory when the leafs haven't won in almost 50 years ... priceless.

Ahhhhhhh yes....... JVR. Another forward that flourished under RC.
- faceto27

Didn't take a genius to put JVR with Kessel. I mean with Lupul always hurt, who was gonna take Lupul's place on the 1st line? Kulemin? Ashton? McLaren?


Philly just never JVR a proper chance. It's the AMAZING chemistry between JVR & Kessel that has allowed JVR to flourish. Not like Carlyle pulled a rabbit out of the hat. I mean if RC did the unthinkable & say made Ashton a top 6 scoring winger than I would give him credit. But not when it comes to JVR.

it's not just about trades for trades sake, but making some moves that would improve the culture of the room when you sense that things aren't meshing

reimer was a major issue and problem that should have been moved
- Flyfreaky

I agree with the Reimer problem. I also believe that a big mistake is having Phaneuf as the captain. Leafs really need a take charge captain. Doesn't have to be a rah rah guy. But someone who will hold other players accountable. Lead by example.

Truthfully, the Leafs greatest weakness is probably the most difficult area to fix.

Good defenseman are the rarest commodity. Hopefully he can address that issue this off season by trading someone like Gardiner. Now we are a postion of strength with PMD's. Time to move one out to get better in another area. I liked that he got our goalie of the future last off season.
- faceto27

Just a culture change. Didn't have to be for an all star. Just a change in a weak area.

Didn't take a genius to put JVR with Kessel. I mean with Lupul always hurt, who was gonna take Lupul's place on the 1st line? Kulemin? Ashton? McLaren?


Philly just never JVR a proper chance. It's the AMAZING chemistry between JVR & Kessel that has allowed JVR to flourish. Not like Carlyle pulled a rabbit out of the hat. I mean if RC did the unthinkable & say made Ashton a top 6 scoring winger than I would give him credit. But not when it comes to JVR.
- GCHonda

Oye vay

Marginalizing a coaches Stanley Cup victory when the leafs haven't won in almost 50 years ... priceless.
- Tumbleweed

Would the Leafs have had a great shot at the Cup if they had both Pronger and Neidermayer on their team? The answer is yes.

Marginalizing a coaches Stanley Cup victory when the leafs haven't won in almost 50 years ... priceless.
- Tumbleweed

Hey in the past I have margalized EVERY cup team Bowman ever coached. Do I have to go down that road again?

Just a culture change. Didn't have to be for an all star. Just a change in a weak area.
- honesthockey

They did....... brought in Gleason for JML. Obviously not enough though. Which brings me back to my original assertion that the Leaf defense is (frank)en horrible.

Can't wait to see Kadri on HNIC.