HA!

Doesn't anybody have any interest in maybe seeing how the guy plays tonight before we make broad statements?
- AllInForFlyers

Why would 1 game change a broad statement more than the previous game?
If he scores a goal tonight, that means as much in the long run as him not scoring a goal last game.

As for your edit, that is basically saying he's a very, VERY expensive insurance policy.

Very odd to look at a stat sheet for Union after 1 period and not see Ghost with 2+ shots. Kid loves to fire the puck.
- jmatchett383

He's back on the ice in the second. I was going to say he looked a bit hobbled but then he got the puck and took it for an end to end rush. Fired it high and wide, but he seems to be alright.

Union going to PP now. He'll surely be out there.

since pp +/- Does Not Count towards stats, idt goals should count against the goalies gaa or save % either

Why would 1 game change a broad statement more than the previous game?
If he scores a goal tonight, that means as much in the long run as him not scoring a goal last game.
- jmatchett383

Well, mainly because if you try arguing "look at the body of results," then MJL's more right than you are.

The guy did play well at the start of the season, before he got hurt. He hasn't played as well since he was injured -- and he's playing out of position.

He was productive last year, in Tampa, as center on the second line. He wasn't brought out for production; it was his contract.

So if we just listen to how you are putting it, you're ready to throw a guy under the bus who hasn't played well for a portion of the season after sustaining injury -- instead of giving that player the benefit of the doubt because of how he was playing pre-injury, which was, to be blunt, well

since pp +/- Does Not Count towards stats, idt goals should count against the goalies gaa or save % either
- mydoglicks

x2

since pp +/- Does Not Count towards stats, idt goals should count against the goalies gaa or save % either
- mydoglicks

Exhibit #1638362 of Things That Don't Make Sense in the NHL

since pp +/- Does Not Count towards stats, idt goals should count against the goalies gaa or save % either
- mydoglicks

mdl droppin truth bombs

Well, mainly because if you try arguing "look at the body of results," then MJL's more right than you are.

The guy did play well at the start of the season, before he got hurt. He hasn't played as well since he was injured -- and he's playing out of position.

He was productive last year, in Tampa, as center on the second line. He wasn't brought out for production; it was his contract.

So if we just listen to how you are putting it, you're ready to throw a guy under the bus who hasn't played well for a portion of the season after sustaining injury -- instead of giving that player the benefit of the doubt because of how he was playing pre-injury, which was, to be blunt, well
- AllInForFlyers

That's not at all what I said in my last post, the one you just replied to You said "Doesn't anybody have any interest in maybe seeing how the guy plays tonight before we make broad statements?"

I'm just wondering, what would 1 game have to do with assessing a broad body of work? If he scores a goal tonight, and has a fantastic game, that's good. If he follows it up with 7 games without a goal and bad work ethic, well then who cares about the 1 goal. The same goes the other way, if he has a bad game tonight and then goes on to play at an All-Star level for the remainder.

Basically, I felt something like, "Why don't we let the guy play for a large amount of games post-injury before we make broad statements?" as tonight's game isn't going to change anybody's overall opinion of him.

Well, mainly because if you try arguing "look at the body of results," then MJL's more right than you are.

The guy did play well at the start of the season, before he got hurt. He hasn't played as well since he was injured -- and he's playing out of position.

He was productive last year, in Tampa, as center on the second line. He wasn't brought out for production; it was his contract.

So if we just listen to how you are putting it, you're ready to throw a guy under the bus who hasn't played well for a portion of the season after sustaining injury -- instead of giving that player the benefit of the doubt because of how he was playing pre-injury, which was, to be blunt, well
- AllInForFlyers

I feel you guys are overvaluing his start. He had a good first couple months of the season mainly due to a high shooting percentage. He didn't generate a ton of chances. He was just very opportunistic. In essence, he was lucky to have the numbers he had.

He may have been one of their better forwards, but thats not really saying much. Our group of forwards was atrocious to start the season.

Exhibit #1638362 in Things That Don't Make Sense in the NHL
- Tomahawk

While I agree somewhat, let me play devil's advocate: Why should a player's +/- rating be placed in jeopardy (playing against a superior force of players on the ice) because of a teammate's infraction? Is a +/- in a 4-on-5 situation the same as a +/- in a 5-on-5 or 4-on-4? I'd say the player on the PK is at a much greater chance of a "-1" rating on the PK, and he had nothing to do with the manpower disparity.

That's not at all what I said in my last post, the one you just replied to You said "Doesn't anybody have any interest in maybe seeing how the guy plays tonight before we make broad statements?"

I'm just wondering, what would 1 game have to do with assessing a broad body of work? If he scores a goal tonight, and has a fantastic game, that's good. If he follows it up with 7 games without a goal and bad work ethic, well then who cares about the 1 goal. The same goes the other way, if he has a bad game tonight and then goes on to play at an All-Star level for the remainder.

Basically, I felt something like, "Why don't we let the guy play for a large amount of games post-injury before we make broad statements?" as tonight's game isn't going to change anybody's overall opinion of him.
- jmatchett383

For one, he'll be back at center -- and while he doesn't have the greatest linemates ever, the difference in position and responsibility could provide some indication of whether he can still handle the role.

Watching him try to play the wing, then assessing his role on the team when he's never done it and was seriously injured -- it's not fair. It doesn't mean he's played well; he hasn't.

But saying that he's not a Top 9 forward because of how he's played on the wing -- which is what you said -- isn't fair. Because he was seriously injured, and he's trying to make that transition

I feel you guys are overvaluing his start. He had a good first couple months of the season mainly due to a high shooting percentage. He didn't generate a ton of chances. He was just very opportunistic. In essence, he was lucky to have the numbers he had.

He may have been one of their better forwards, but thats not really saying much. Our group of forwards was atrocious to start the season.
- PhillySportsGuy

I am no Vinny supporter, but I strongly disagree with your premise. Being very opportunistic is exactly what you want. Why should a player be devalued because he takes advantage of the few opportunities he gets? This makes no sense to me. It's not luck, it's skill.

For one, he'll be back at center -- and while he doesn't have the greatest linemates ever, the difference in position and responsibility could provide some indication of whether he can still handle the role.

Watching him try to play the wing, then assessing his role on the team when he's never done it and was seriously injured -- it's not fair. It doesn't mean he's played well; he hasn't.

But saying that he's not a Top 9 forward because of how he's played on the wing -- which is what you said -- isn't fair. Because he was seriously injured, and he's trying to make that transition
- AllInForFlyers

The problem with Vinny is that he needs to be a top 3 center on this team in order to be in the top 9.

Sexy.
- Nucker101

lol no

For one, he'll be back at center -- and while he doesn't have the greatest linemates ever, the difference in position and responsibility could provide some indication of whether he can still handle the role.

Watching him try to play the wing, then assessing his role on the team when he's never done it and was seriously injured -- it's not fair. It doesn't mean he's played well; he hasn't.

But saying that he's not a Top 9 forward because of how he's played on the wing -- which is what you said -- isn't fair. Because he was seriously injured, and he's trying to make that transition
- AllInForFlyers

So if he has success tonight as the 4th line center, he automatically is given the 2nd line center spot and Schenn is moved to wing? Just like that, 1 game is the answer and no other factors come into play?

since pp +/- Does Not Count towards stats, idt goals should count against the goalies gaa or save % either
- mydoglicks

that's why many people use even-strength save % when assessing goalies

edit: although, this is an advanced stat, so beware

since pp +/- Does Not Count towards stats, idt goals should count against the goalies gaa or save % either
- mydoglicks

Shoot out wins shouldn't count either.

mdl droppin truth bombs
- aightwebang17

lol, its been on my mind for awhile now, just popped in my head while reading hear and wanted to say it before it left me

I am no Vinny supporter, but I strongly disagree with your premise. Being very opportunistic is exactly what you want. Why should a player be devalued because he takes advantage of the few opportunities he gets? This makes no sense to me. It's not luck, it's skill.
- wilsonecho91

Their argument is stats based. They say look at Vinny's stats earlier this year. Well, his shooting percentage was 19% earlier this year. Thats unsustainable.

What I'm saying is you can't prorate his numbers and expect him to produce at the same clip. There was going to be a regression to the mean.

They act like he was lighting the world on fire, but he was just shooting a higher percentage. He wasn't generating more chances.

Ghost just had a great play to create a 2 on 1 and delivered a great pass to set up what would have been a goal. The would be goal scorer was taken down for a penalty. Union then Scored on the PP. 3-1 Union

Ghost just had a great play to create a 2 on 1 and delivered a great pass to set up what would have been a goal. The would be goal scorer was taken down for a penalty. Union then Scored on the PP. 3-1 Union
- PhillySportsGuy

He looked real good on that play.

since pp +/- Does Not Count towards stats, idt goals should count against the goalies gaa or save % either
- mydoglicks

Interesting. Does advanced stats give you information on goalies. Would be really interested goalies stats at 5-on-5, on PK, and on odd man rushes, and break-aways/shootouts... So who the best really is.

So if he has success tonight as the 4th line center, he automatically is given the 2nd line center spot and Schenn is moved to wing? Just like that, 1 game is the answer and no other factors come into play?
- jmatchett383

Why is it with some of you that you demand immediate satisfaction?

Let the guy play a game at center, so you can get a feel if he can handle the role! But you don't say, "He should NEVER be allowed to move up again! He sucks!"

Scott Hartnell got moved down to L2, remember? Why? Because he was brutal. And over a sequence of games, he got his poop together and got to move back up!

Gosh! Not every minute of every game has to be a referendum on what a guy is -- give the guy a chance to play his preferred position -- and if he kills it, then yeah, he should get to move up, too!

Their argument is stats based. They say look at Vinny's stats earlier this year. Well, his shooting percentage was 19% earlier this year. Thats unsustainable.

What I'm saying is you can't prorate his numbers and expect him to produce at the same clip. There was going to be a regression to the mean.

They act like he was lighting the world on fire, but he was just shooting a higher percentage. He wasn't generating more chances.
- PhillySportsGuy

got you. sorry to snit.

While I agree somewhat, let me play devil's advocate: Why should a player's +/- rating be placed in jeopardy (playing against a superior force of players on the ice) because of a teammate's infraction? Is a +/- in a 4-on-5 situation the same as a +/- in a 5-on-5 or 4-on-4? I'd say the player on the PK is at a much greater chance of a "-1" rating on the PK, and he had nothing to do with the manpower disparity.
- jmatchett383

Same goes for goalies, too, right?

It's just a lot of little inconsistencies (and some big ones, too) that leave you scratching your head... like who came up with these weird rules and guidelines anyway? Icing allowed on PK, points for losing games, penalties for breaking your own stick, uneven conferences, goals can't be scored off hands but you can bat the puck around at will... Etc.