CSP has a picture of himself in a suit on his own mask.
https://twitter.com/NYRan...48466907088568321/photo/1
- wilsonecho91

this is fukin pathetic.

I think it becomes flawed if a team is intentionally just throwing shots on net every chance they get without really generating a legitimate chance. I just don't think teams are doing that though.
- PhillySportsGuy

Hopefully the NHL will institute a player/puck tracking system like the NBA just did and we can put the value of shot attempt volume to bed and just go by pure possession/zone times.

Hopefully the NHL will institute a player/puck tracking system like the NBA just did and we can put the value of shot attempt volume to bed and just go by pure possession/zone times.
- Tomahawk

NBA has no neutral zone and they do not intentionally spend time in the their own end. Once the other team has the ball the other team retreats to defense. Hockey is impossible to accurately track true possession times.

Hopefully the NHL will institute a player/puck tracking system like the NBA just did and we can put the value of shot attempt volume to bed and just go by pure possession/zone times.
- Tomahawk

I can imagine a guy sitting at a terminal with two stop watch displays (one for each team) and a big switch, frantically slamming it back and forth whenever the puck changes possession.

Please do this.

Thats all advanced stats are. Quantitative educated guesses. It's called statistics. Just because something has a 99% chance of occurring doesn't mean that the 1% can't come out on top. It also doesn't mean you shouldn't put your money on the 99%.
- FlyersSteve118

- SchennBros

And I didn't even have to buy you dinner first.

Yes, but I also think that Fenwick and Corsi are useless if a team has a low Shooting %.

How does throwing a lot of low percentage shots at the net constitute possession? I think every stat needs a second stat to really quantify it.
- FlyersSteve118

You just made my argument for me, just said it more compactly. They tell a small part of the story.

I can imagine a guy sitting at a terminal with two stop watch displays (one for each team) and a big switch, frantically slamming it back and forth whenever the puck changes possession.

Please do this.
- BulliesPhan87

Can it be guinea pig powered?

And I didn't even have to buy you dinner first.
- FlyersSteve118

CSP has a picture of himself in a suit on his own mask.
https://twitter.com/NYRan...48466907088568321/photo/1
- wilsonecho91

ugh.

You just made my argument for me. They tell a small part of the story.
- jmatchett383

This was my original argument that you disagreed with from the start. I said the rangers are over rated because of their high possession stats, but low shooting %. That people look too closely at possession numbers, which makes them an overrated team.

Can it be guinea pig powered?


- Tomahawk

I like where this is going. The operator should be dressed as a mad scientist, for good measure.

Do this, and I will officially join the advanced stats team.

He's the cat from Red Dwarf.

"How am I looking? I'm looking nice!"


- wolfhounds

this is fukin pathetic.
- aightwebang17

The helmet looks awesome too if you take out that picture.

This was my original argument that you disagreed with from the start. I said the rangers are over rated because of their high possession stats, but low shooting %. That people look too closely at possession numbers, which makes them an overrated team.
- FlyersSteve118

No, I said that I was able to tell that they were somewhat good by watching them and looking at their record. When did I ever say they had good/bad advanced stats ratings?

We get seriously outplayed for 40 minutes and only down 2-0 and people wonder if Mason was it net would the outcome have been any different? Emery faced 33 shot in the first 2 periods and the majority of them were quality chances. Why do people refuse to give Emery his props. He was the ONLY reason the Flyers weren't losing 6-0 after 2 periods. Emery had a hell of a game no matter the outcome.

No, I said that I was able to tell that they were somewhat good by watching them and looking at their record. When did I ever say they had good/bad advanced stats ratings?
- jmatchett383

You made it seem like what I said meant nothing because I used stats and you watched the games instead. (I also watch the games, I just use stats too.) Im not saying they are bad, just very over rated.

http://www.crossingbroad....-went-horribly-wrong.html

I think it becomes flawed if a team is intentionally just throwing shots on net every chance they get without really generating a legitimate chance. I just don't think teams are doing that though.
- PhillySportsGuy

As has been pointed out, there's a big difference between quality shots and non quality shots. The flaws are lessened when looking at team totals. But the flaws are amplified when looking at specific players.

+/- is still a very good stat if you know how to read it. If you factor in QoC and zone start %. Couturier being pretty much even makes his +/- amazing. Lecavalier getting sheltered minutes makes his +/- all that much worse.
- FlyersSteve118

It's all about context. But QoC is a badly flawed stat within itself.

It's all about context. But QoC is a badly flawed stat within itself.
- MJL

It's pretty solid based on what they are trying to use it for. Trying to quantify quality of competition is just ridiculously hard to do. It gets the point across is what Im trying to say.

It's all about context. But QoC is a badly flawed stat within itself.
- MJL

Movement has been toward TotTm% to gauge quality of comp so defensive players don't get punished as much... it's based on the simple premise that the best players will see the most % of icetime for their teams, regardless of how good they are at driving play.

It's pretty solid based on what they are trying to use it for. Trying to quantify quality of competition is just ridiculously hard to do. It gets the point across is what Im trying to say.
- FlyersSteve118

Not really. How is the QoC of any one player compiled? What is the base stat that is used to compile that rating?

Movement has been toward TotTm% to gauge quality of comp so defensive players don't get punished as much... it's based on the simple premise that the best players will see the most % of icetime for their teams, regardless of how good they are at driving play.
- Tomahawk

Exactly. And this only further points out the limitations and flaws in all of these stats. As FlyersSteve pointed out, every stat needs another stat to get to the right conclusion. And they all have to be looked at together in the correct context. And then be analyzed properly. And then there are the human elements that come into play with causation vs correlation and confirmation bias. And we've seen on this very forum how they can be mis-used to criticize a player unfairly.

Here's the bottom line. Give the stats the proper weight they deserve, which is very little, and watch the game. An educated and informed fan can come to the proper conclusion without them.

You made it seem like what I said meant nothing because I used stats and you watched the games instead. (I also watch the games, I just use stats too.) Im not saying they are bad, just very over rated.
- FlyersSteve118

My point is that I can watch a game, evaluate it, and use logic. Or, I can use an incredible amount of stats and get to the same conclusion, in most cases.

Basically, I'm saying that advanced stats are just the mathematical proof of what can be (again, generally) evaluated by watching the games.