That is incorrect, concerning Datsyuk.
- jmatchett383

It is, I somehow missed the other two season he did.

I don't disagree, I'd rather have them than Ovechkin. And he could be a better defensive player. I just think it gets overblown.

Overrated:
Carter
Richards

Underrated:
BSchenn
Voracek
Simmonds
Couturier

Common, that's BS. He had Backstrom Green and Semin scoring like 90+ goals in support that year, that was the difference. Those Caps teams from back in the day were damned scary... if McPhee did a better job of choosing support players and hiring coaches to complement his roster, they wouldn't be a fringe team today, despite OV's two-way issues.
- Tomahawk

That style got them in trouble in the playoffs. Think about the best teams in the playoffs. They are all led by good two-way forwards.

Krejci, Bergeron, Toews, H. Sedin (he's alright), Kesler, Kopitar, Richards

FWIW, Nicklas Backstrom, who plays on the same team as Ovechkin, has less goals but the same amount of points as Ovechkin, is a -20. But not even looking at his +/-, Backstrom is a player who, while not being a Selke candidate, at least gives an honest effort defensively. Personally, I'd rather have him that Ovechkin.
- jmatchett383

+1

Overrated:
Carter
Richards

Underrated:
BSchenn
Voracek
Simmonds
Couturier
- 77rams

We see what you did there

How many defensive stalwarts up front are there that score 35 goals per season?
- PLindbergh31

When did I ever say defensive stalwarts? If you're defining a "defensive stalwart' as "well-rounded enough to be on the ice in the final minute of a game with a lead, and is a decent backchecker" then the following players fit the bill I stated?

Corey Perry (although I hate him)
Ryan Getzlaf
Patrick Sharp
Jamie Benn
Sidney Crosby
Jonathan Toews

Heck, even Kessel and Pacioretty fit it.

Agreed! Since we are talking +/- what is MacDonald's +/- since joining the Flyers? And where is the offense? 1 assist in 8 games? Stiff!
- PLindbergh31

Im still fuming about that Bartulis cap penalty a few years back

Im still fuming about that Bartulis cap penalty a few years back
- funmaster18

That really hindered them from pursuing all the free agents they wanted

It is, I somehow missed the other two season he did.

I don't disagree, I'd rather have them than Ovechkin. And he could be a better defensive player. I just think it gets overblown.
- Jsaquella

I agree on that. He has deficiencies for sure, which comes with his game. I just think he'd be a better player (and better captain) if he concentrated on his overall game and sacrificed his offense. Heck, even Kovalchuk did in his final few seasons, and he almost won a Cup by doing it.

FWIW, Nicklas Backstrom, who plays on the same team as Ovechkin, has less goals but the same amount of points as Ovechkin, is a -20. But not even looking at his +/-, Backstrom is a player who, while not being a Selke candidate, at least gives an honest effort defensively. Personally, I'd rather have him that Ovechkin.
- jmatchett383

Absolutely. Backstrom is a Helluva player.

But his -20 kind of points out that just tossing +/- out there isn't the end all, be all of it.

Also, a LOT of guys on Washington have pretty bad +/- ratings. Of their top ten skaters in TOI, only two have positive +/- ratings.

When did I ever say defensive stalwarts? If you're defining a "defensive stalwarT' as "well-rounded enough to be on the ice in the final minute of a game with a lead, and is a decent backchecker" then the following players fit the bill I stated?

Corey Perry (although I hate him)
Ryan Getzlaf
Patrick Sharp
Jamie Benn
Sidney Crosby
Jonathan Toews

Heck, even Kessel and Pacioretty fit it.
- jmatchett383

Exactly. Ovechkin is such a defensive liability. Your best players shouldn't need to be spotted minutes in certain situations.

He is a great PP specialist, but thats where his overall game becomes very average.

FWIW, Bergeron has more ES points than Ovechkin.

That style got them in trouble in the playoffs. Think about the best teams in the playoffs. They are all led by good two-way forwards.

Krejci, Bergeron, Toews, H. Sedin (he's alright), Kesler, Kopitar, Richards
- PhillySportsGuy

Gretzky, Mario and Jags weren't exactly fastidious back-checkers... they all have multiple Cups... and nobody questions their overall worth to their teams.

Btw, nice job of re-derailing the thread.

I agree on that. He has deficiencies for sure, which comes with his game. I just think he'd be a better player (and better captain) if he concentrated on his overall game and sacrificed his offense. Heck, even Kovalchuk did in his final few seasons, and he almost won a Cup by doing it.
- jmatchett383

Agreed on all of that, especially the part about being a better player. I'm not really defending him, because it seems all he does care about is scoring goals.

I think people have Ovechkin envy. He reminds me a lot of what Jagr used to be. A great scorer with a great work ethic. I think later on in his career, while the defense might not ever be perfect, his game will adjust.

That really hindered them from pursuing all the free agents they wanted
- BulliesPhan87

They wouldn't have started 1-7 if homer hadn't (frank)ed it up. Should be first in the division

I think people have Ovechkin envy. He reminds me a lot of what Jagr used to be. A great scorer with a great work ethic. I think later on in his career, while the defense might not ever be perfect, his game will adjust.
- SchennBros

Absolutely. Backstrom is a Helluva player.

But his -20 kind of points out that just tossing +/- out there isn't the end all, be all of it.

Also, a LOT of guys on Washington have pretty bad +/- ratings. Of their top ten skaters in TOI, only two have positive +/- ratings.
- Jsaquella

I bet Backstrom is dragged down by Ovi. I have no evidence to support this claim, but watching the Caps play, Backstrom is not bad defensively.

Kessel
- jmatchett383

Kessel = Diet Ovechkin

Gretzky, Mario and Jags weren't exactly fastidious back-checkers... they all have multiple Cups... and nobody questions their overall worth to their teams.

Btw, nice job of re-derailing the thread.
- Tomahawk

That's where I am with that, as well -- God bless them all, but you were right when you said McPhee could've done a better job of acquiring support players.

I respect those three guys as much as anyone who has ever played, but the Edmonton Oilers tried to outscore you, not out-check you

Gretzky, Mario and Jags weren't exactly fastidious back-checkers... they all have multiple Cups... and nobody questions their overall worth to their teams.

Btw, nice job of re-derailing the thread.
- Tomahawk

Thank you.

Those guys were able to outscore defensive deficiencies. (They really weren't that bad defensively like Ovechkin. I think Gretzky has the record for SHG). It's all about how much you offer your team. If you're a very bad defensive player, you need to score A LOT of points to be a great player.

Kessel = Diet Ovechkin
- Tomahawk

I think Kessel makes a better effort defensively than Ovechkin. I don't think he's an extremely cognizant defensive player, but he tries harder and is better in that regard.

One thing we can all agree on:

If you don't put oregano on a cold hoagie, you need to rethink what you call your "morals".

Agreed on all of that, especially the part about being a better player. I'm not really defending him, because it seems all he does care about is scoring goals.
- Jsaquella

For some unknown reason, a Buddy Ryan quote just popped into my head.

That's where I am with that, as well -- God bless them all, but you were right when you said McPhee could've done a better job of acquiring support players.

I respect those three guys as much as anyone who has ever played, but the Edmonton Oilers tried to outscore you, not out-check you
- AllInForFlyers

It was a different time though. Thats 20 years ago. Gretzky and Mario were registering 150 point season with regularity.

One thing we can all agree on:

If you don't put oregano on a cold hoagie, you need to rethink what you call your "morals".
- Giroux_Is_God