First, see edit above. Second, Phaneuf is not 13th.

ES goals against while on the ice. Now, try go back, look at them, and think about that for a minute.
- prock

You can discuss this without the vitriol. Drop the insults and condescension. This is your warning.

First, see edit above. Second, Phaneuf is not 13th. Jesus, how many times do I have to correct you and point out what the numbers mean before it clues in? Seriously, smarten up. You're being an absolute idiot.

ES goals against while on the ice. Now, try go back, look at them, and think about that for a minute.
- prock

So what, playing bad D while on the PK doesn't count?

Karlsson plays more minutes, with a worse partner, in front of worse goaltending.........kind of expect him to be on for more GA

Now your being silly again. If a player is on the ice for 30 minutes facing up against the other teams best player (as Karlsson was last game) and two goals are scored against; do you really believe this is a more negative stat than the guy playing 10 minutes and giving up a goal against a third or fourth liner.

You need to think this through. It really does not make much sense.
- spatso

Umm, I addressed that.

And here is another question. When one player plays 20 minutes even strength, plus 5 minutes of pp, and the other plays 21 minutes even strength, and 3 minutes PP, but both have 2 goals against, which one was more effective defensively?

No it doesn't. If you're going to try to isolate defensive acumen, you're better off looking only at goals against while on the ice. It's difficult to measure defense vs measuring offense, but that is one thing that can be looked at for Dmen.

Even that, however, is influenced by a few things. Like ice time, linemates, and most importantly, goaltending.
- prock

You can discuss this without the vitriol. Drop the insults and condescension. This is your warning.
- jtommyt

I've honestly tried to explain the stats to this guy about ten times, it's getting frustrating.

So what, playing bad D while on the PK doesn't count?

Karlsson plays more minutes, with a worse partner, in front of worse goaltending.........kind of expect him to be on for more GA
- sensarmy_11

Are you honestly going to try to compare goals against for two players that play 25 minutes, one who plays 20 minutes ES and 5 minutes PK, and the other who plays 20 minutes ES, and 5 minutes PP? That's obviously not an even playing field.

Comparing ES goals against is at least closer to a level playing field. To be thorough, yes, you'd have to adjust for many more things.

he plays something like 15% more ES, and has something like 50% more goals against.

I've honestly tried to explain the stats to this guy about ten times, it's getting frustrating.
- prock

First of all you always switch stats...first it was strictly Goals a player is on the ice for, but since we sort of showed the flaw in that, you switched to ES GA. Next it will be ES GA, in the 2nd period of away games

2nd......considering that 98% of your posts are in Sens or sens related threads, and are just karlsson insults....nobody really cares if you're frustrated

I've honestly tried to explain the stats to this guy about ten times, it's getting frustrating.
- prock

I understand that, but you still can't call people idiots.

Are you honestly going to try to compare goals against for two players that play 25 minutes, one who plays 20 minutes ES and 5 minutes PK, and the other who plays 20 minutes ES, and 5 minutes PP? That's obviously not an even playing field.

Comparing ES goals against is at least closer to a level playing field. To be thorough, yes, you'd have to adjust for many more things.

he plays something like 15% more ES, and has something like 50% more goals against.
- prock

phaneuf plays 1 minute more PK per game, and 50 seconds less pp time

Any more made up stats you want to use

Are you honestly going to try to compare goals against for two players that play 25 minutes, one who plays 20 minutes ES and 5 minutes PK, and the other who plays 20 minutes ES, and 5 minutes PP? That's obviously not an even playing field.

Comparing ES goals against is at least closer to a level playing field. To be thorough, yes, you'd have to adjust for many more things.

he plays something like 15% more ES, and has something like 50% more goals against.
- prock

This is such a terrible argument. I don't know why this is still going on. You like Phaneuf. We like Karlsson. Each side can find stats to support their position. Ask GM's around the league which one they want on their team.

That's no slight on Phaneuf - I think he's a good player. Karlsson has a different skillset.

Also, Karlsson is not defensively bad - watch the games he plays and the number of chances he deters with good positioning, stickwork and speed. Not by knocking guys off their feet.

First of all you always switch stats...first it was strictly Goals a player is on the ice for, but since we sort of showed the flaw in that, you switched to ES GA. Next it will be ES GA, in the 2nd period of away games

2nd......considering that 98% of your posts are in Sens or sens related threads, and are just karlsson insults....nobody really cares if you're frustrated
- sensarmy_11

Nope, I've always used GA ES. If you want to compare GA while on the PK, go ahead. You'd have to adjust them both for ice time to be thorough, and PK would skew much more heavily than ES. No point in doing so for PP.

hey look prock, you have a twin

point totals - 44th among dmen

+/- is actually 15 not 22, and is a completely meaningless stat.......its the same as saying he's been on the ice for more goals then all but 12 dmen in the entire league.

hits and blocks - who cares. his numbers are the same as allstars like gudas, cowen, schenn, stuart, lovejoy, etc.

phaneuf as a top 5 is laughable

chara, keith, suter, subban, seabrook, karlsson, pietrangelo, bouwmeester, doughty, mcdonough, weber, vlasic, edler, letang, hedman, etc, etc, etc

phaneuf is maybe top 20-30, but top 5 is laughable
- sensarmy_11

Nice list, this combined with the who cares comments show your utter lacking of comprehension

Oh, and your welcome for Hemsky

This is such a terrible argument. I don't know why this is still going on. You like Phaneuf. We like Karlsson. Each side can find stats to support their position. Ask GM's around the league which one they want on their team.

That's no slight on Phaneuf - I think he's a good player. Karlsson has a different skillset.

Also, Karlsson is not defensively bad - watch the games he plays and the number of chances he deters with good positioning, stickwork and speed. Not by knocking guys off their feet.
- sensano

I actually never brought Phaneuf into it.

The last paragraph however, you're wrong. However he tries to play defense, he's not successful at it.

phaneuf plays 1 minute more PK per game, and 50 seconds less pp time

Any more made up stats you want to use
- sensarmy_11

I'm not making anything up.

In 115 minutes of PK Karlsson has 19 goals against.

In 191 minutes of PK Phaneuf has 25.

So, roughly 7.64 minutes of PK played per goal against, just over 6 minutes for Karlsson. So, per minute of playing time, Karlsson gets scored on roughly 26% more. That would be your time adjusted number.

This is such a terrible argument. I don't know why this is still going on. You like Phaneuf. We like Karlsson. Each side can find stats to support their position. Ask GM's around the league which one they want on their team.

That's no slight on Phaneuf - I think he's a good player. Karlsson has a different skillset.

Also, Karlsson is not defensively bad - watch the games he plays and the number of chances he deters with good positioning, stickwork and speed. Not by knocking guys off their feet.
- sensano

I watch most Sens game through the US broadcast as it is easier for me to get. Broadcasters and color commentators rave about Karlsson and they play unending highlights of his skill set. So, it rather shocks me when some Canadian based fans try to knock his game. It looks hugely petty on you.

I actually never brought Phaneuf into it.

The last paragraph however, you're wrong. However he tries to play defense, he's not successful at it.
- prock

Oh sorry, I didn't know...

I watch most Sens game through the US broadcast as it is easier for me to get. Broadcasters and color commentators rave about Karlsson and they play unending highlights of his skill set. So, it rather shocks me when some Canadian based fans try to knock his game. It looks hugely petty on you.
- spatso

if its petty to have a different opinion that an Ottawa Senators fan then I guess I could say it looks elitist of you to look down on someone with a differing opinion.

I'm not making anything up.

In 115 minutes of PK Karlsson has 19 goals against.

In 191 minutes of PK Phaneuf has 25.

So, roughly 7.64 minutes of PK played per goal against, just over 6 minutes for Karlsson. So, per minute of playing time, Karlsson gets scored on roughly 26% more. That would be your time adjusted number.
- prock

So now your using minutes played in relation to goals because it is suitable to this particular point. Proof texting of data is name used explain the phenomena of people manipulating all data until it finally can be used to prove a point they want to make. Your being silly.

I'm not making anything up.

In 115 minutes of PK Karlsson has 19 goals against.

In 191 minutes of PK Phaneuf has 25.

So, roughly 7.64 minutes of PK played per goal against, just over 6 minutes for Karlsson. So, per minute of playing time, Karlsson gets scored on roughly 26% more. That would be your time adjusted number.
- prock

What about the opponent, or the time zone, or perhaps the elevation of the arena, position of the stars, and we can't forget what they ate for dinner on that particular day

I watch most Sens game through the US broadcast as it is easier for me to get. Broadcasters and color commentators rave about Karlsson and they play unending highlights of his skill set. So, it rather shocks me when some Canadian based fans try to knock his game. It looks hugely petty on you.
- spatso

Reading through these threads makes me feel like fans think there can only be ONE good player. It should be easy to acknowledge skill on either team. The make-up of teams is what wins Stanley Cups.

This would be a much more intelligent conversation if we were talking about the Senators failure to pair Karlsson with a decent partner, or maybe to find a missing piece for the Leafs. Instead, arguments about what GF vs +/- vs hair style abound...

So now your using minutes played in relation to goals because it is suitable to this particular point. Proof texting of data is name used explain the phenomena of people manipulating all data until it finally can be used to prove a point they want to make. Your being silly.
- spatso

No, I can do it for the other one too. It's not a readily available stat though, and I'm too lazy to do it too much. It supports what I'm saying at ES too.

I think it's pretty similar. Roughly 25 to 30% more goals scored with Karlsson on the ice.

He's not dead last in the league when you factor in ice. Not too far off either though.

if its petty to have a different opinion that an Ottawa Senators fan then I guess I could say it looks elitist of you to look down on someone with a differing opinion.
- gzatron

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just find it strange that any criticism of Karlsson primarily comes from Canadian based fans. It seems like a fan reaction of what they want to believe.

Eklund: Will Spezza Join Kesler as The Players to Look to be Moved at the Draft?
- Eklund

I don't know, you are the one who is supposed to have all the answers so you tell us.

Reading through these threads makes me feel like fans think there can only be ONE good player. It should be easy to acknowledge skill on either team. The make-up of teams is what wins Stanley Cups.

This would be a much more intelligent conversation if we were talking about the Senators failure to pair Karlsson with a decent partner, or maybe to find a missing piece for the Leafs. Instead, arguments about what GF vs +/- vs hair style abound...
- sensano

Karlsson is certainly an elite talent that will get even much better. One of the reasons why I am supportive of the Sens dealing Spezza is I believe that the team should be built around Karlsson and his attacking style.