The JVR for Schenn trade is not a fleecing. No where near it. Calling it a fleecing is what's foolish.
Where would the Flyers be this year without Kimmo Timonen? What would the defense that you call average look like without Timonen? Who else could they have gotten to play in the situations that Timonen plays in? What risk was there in signing Timonen to a one year deal for 6M?
The Bryzgalov deal did not work out, that's for sure. But I blame the player more then I do Holmgren. The Flyers needed a goaltender, and went out and signed the top goaltender available, who was a recent Vezina finalist. The player didn't play up to the contract. I have no problem with the Bobrovsky trade and how that played out. I didn't expect him to win the Vezina, and we'll see if he lives up to that level the rest of his career. And in the end we have Mason. I'm happy with that. We'll see how that plays out.
the Streit signing was neccessary. The Flyers needed a puck mover on the back end, and they needed a player with a big point shot. Streit's deal is reasonable. And again, in regards to context that we talked about previously. If Pronger doesn't get hurt, do you think Holmgren signs Streit?
The Lecavalier signing was a flat out steal of a deal. I love that signing. No brainer. before the back injury, he was scoring at a 30+ goal pace. And he was a hard player on the puck, and a hard player at the net. That signing cost the Flyers zero player assets. And when he get's back to 100%, he'll be that player again. And gives the Flyers a solid veteran scoring line player.
Look around the League and see players that are signed to deals with movement clauses. Find out that the Flyers aren't different then other teams in that regard. Fact of life in the NHL.

And finally, I don't hold Holmgren above criticism. But I do look at what he's done objectively and without bias. And I give the reasons why I think what I think. Rather then just post check, as if it's self evident and not debatable.
- MJL

Sure .....Schenn a healthy scratch earlier this year ....perhaps a 4 th or 5th that had his best year as a rookie is worth a 30 + goal scorer who is only getting better and better....I looked up the word fleecing in the dictionary....there was a picture of Luke Schenn!!!!

The $ paid Timo is only there because of how bad the d is.....it's not my $... But it Impares other movements.
Same with Streit. I actually have liked his last 20 games but am scared to death what the back end of deal will be.....necessary might be a stretch....more like panic
Vinny deal? Again he had fallen off in the last two years....again the back end is scary....one thing the Flyers DIDNT need was another center? To play in front of Schenn and Couturier? And potentially stunt their development.....I still don't get it.
As far as where he fits going forward? I have no idea....is he now a winger?

As far as what others do......I have looked over cap geek which lists these clauses and the Flyers appear to be one of the more giving teams.

Not even sure how the Bobrovsky trade can be glossed over ?.....does a solid first 60 games by Mason excuse the first trade? Apparently to you it does.

I'd also be happy with Jared McCann, Nikolaj Ehlers, David Pastrnak, or Adrian Kempe.
- ob18

saw a highlight video of Nik Ritchie. Talented kid. What's his d-play like?

Nope, OB hates the kid.
- Jsaquella

R.I.P. you will be missed

I might be but more so with (all his goals from last night)


- ob18

In the NHL you get 1 point for a goal scored and 2 points if its extra creative

saw a highlight video of Nik Ritchie. Talented kid. What's his d-play like?
- wilsonecho91

It's a work in progress but from last year to this year it's a noticeable improvement. He's a man child, I'll be watching him against Laughton on Thursday.

R.I.P. you will be missed
- monty burns

He's right, not a fan of his & from what I can gather neither are some NHL scouts.

I call him the Canadian version of Nail Yakupov. All the offensive talent in the world but often forgets he has team mates, that defense is actually part of the game, and how to back check.

He's right, not a fan of his & from what I can gather neither are some NHL scouts.
- ob18

From what I've read there's quite a few others that share your concerns. I just bring him up because of your dislike.

From what I've read there's quite a few others that share your concerns. I just bring him up because of your dislike.
- Jsaquella

That's fine, I've watched enough to know I see what I've been told.

THE IRON PIGS ARE WEARING BACON HATS I NEED ONE I MUST HAVE ONE

There is really an interesting phenomenon that happens with Hockey fans and forums like this. I learned a long time ago, that a player is best judged over a significant period of time. I think really the shortest period that a player should be judged on, when coming to any determination close to being final, is a full Season. At the least. Even the best of players are subject to circumstances that affect their level of play at times during a Season. For short periods, or even sometimes longer. We saw that even with a player as good as Giroux in the early part of the Season. Some were questioning whether extending him to the huge deal was a good move. Players such as Simmonds, Hartnell, Voracek, and others were deemed no good, and needed to be moved. Or were flash in the pan players. Lecavalier sustains a pretty serious injury, and now he's no good the deal is labeled with a "check" and that it was a bad deal. I let it play out. And see what happens before making a rush to judgement. Thank goodness out GM does also. And that he has had some patience with some of these players. Nothing wrong with saying that so and so is having a bad stretch and needs to find his game. Or that he's not playing well right now. But that's quite different from saying that a long term signing is a bad one after half or three quarters of a season.

To summarize. Judging players over a short period of time is a bad idea. And often paints a false picture. Judging a player over a significant period of time such as a Season, paints a much clearer picture. And you have a better chance of getting it right.
- MJL

Funny....that's exactly what the Flyers did with Richards, Carter and JVR....signed them ALL to long term deals then decided a very short time later that they all didn't fit!!!!!!
So what is the Flyer philosophy ?

That's fine, I've watched enough to know I see what I've been told.
- ob18

I'm just waiting for the tears when they trade Laughton for Ron Hainsey

It's a work in progress but from last year to this year it's a noticeable improvement. He's a man child, I'll be watching him against Laughton on Thursday.
- ob18

what a shot. from the limited exposure I have to him, looks a bit like a better skating version of LeClair.

I'm just waiting for the tears when they trade Laughton for Ron Hainsey
- Jsaquella

Not going to happen.

Laundry list.....

Bryz- disaster........check
JVR for Schenn........check
Bobrovsky for draft picks......check.
Timo for 6 mill. This year......yea right.
Over inflated free agent contracts for players on down side of career......see Streit and Vinny.
An assortment of no trade and no movement clauses signed in last few years that further hamper team going forward.
All this in the last 3 years.....

What context do you need? You simply argue that Holmgren had no options...like those are the facts!!!!!!..yes it's tough to trade for quality d.....but it's also true that the Flyers have some young assets that could form a deal in comparison to others.....to argue that the Schenn deal for JVR is anything but a fleecing is simply foolish.....you pretend to know what the asking prices are for top tier d men, and simply say the price is to high.....
Simply put Holmgren has done a below average job in the last 3 years.....the Flyers have a below average d......they are fighting tooth and nail for the playoffs this year after missing the playoffs last year.....and yet you seem to hold our dolt of a GM above criticism.......I simply don't.

- landros 2

I like the cut of your jib sir.

what a shot. from the limited exposure I have to him, looks a bit like a better skating version of LeClair.
- wilsonecho91

Here watch his 5 goal game against Kingston

http://www.ontariohockeyl...c838d9933667cb2ac3475a10e

Sure .....Schenn a healthy scratch earlier this year ....perhaps a 4 th or 5th that had his best year as a rookie is worth a 30 + goal scorer who is only getting better and better....I looked up the word fleecing in the dictionary....there was a picture of Luke Schenn!!!!



- landros 2

Luke Schenn is 24 years old. Who got the better of the deal is far from established. Defenseman take time to develop. The deal looks better for Toronto now. But who actually got the long term better of that deal, is far from being decided.

The $ paid Timo is only there because of how bad the d is.....it's not my $... But it Impares other movements.


- landros 2

They paid Timonen what they paid him because that's what his value was. I'll ask again. What player could they have gotten to replace Timonen for this Season? And what was the risk in signing him to that one year deal?
What other movement did it impair? If you're defense is bad, how is signing a player who will be your best defenseman, for one year, a bad move? Wouldn't the defense be worse if you didn't? Seems pretty simple to me.

Same with Streit. I actually have liked his last 20 games but am scared to death what the back end of deal will be.....necessary might be a stretch....more like panic


- landros 2

Same with what? If you want to add a player with Streit's skillset, which the Flyers badly needed, that is the cost. And he has done what he was brought in to do. And his Cap hit is reasonable.

Vinny deal? Again he had fallen off in the last two years....again the back end is scary....one thing the Flyers DIDNT need was another center? To play in front of Schenn and Couturier? And potentially stunt their development.....I still don't get it.
As far as where he fits going forward? I have no idea....is he now a winger?


- landros 2

Fallen off of what? The question is, is he still a good player and worth 4.5M? I think he is, and it was a steal of a deal. If the Flyers need to trade a Center to add a defenseman that they need. Will they then have a need for a Center? There is no such thing as having too many good Centers. And either Schenn or Lecavalier can play on the Wing. And Lecavalier is not stunting anyone's growth. Both players are getting plenty of icetime in key situations.

As far as what others do......I have looked over cap geek which lists these clauses and the Flyers appear to be one of the more giving teams.


- landros 2

Flyers aren't different from any other team in that regard.

Not even sure how the Bobrovsky trade can be glossed over ?.....does a solid first 60 games by Mason excuse the first trade? Apparently to you it does.
- landros 2

The Flyers got good value for an unproven goalie at the time. Why does it matter if it's Bobrovsky or Mason in net? As long as the Flyers goaltending position is solidified. Mason's success this Season is quantified in games. What makes Bobrovsky so great? The 48 games last Season? Seems as though the same standard is not applied.

Funny....that's exactly what the Flyers did with Richards, Carter and JVR....signed them ALL to long term deals then decided a very short time later that they all didn't fit!!!!!!
So what is the Flyer philosophy ?

- landros 2

Both Mike Richards and Jeff Carter played 6 Seasons as Flyers. So how did the Flyers judge them over a short period of time?

I believe that there was some frustration and somewhat of a lack of patience with JVR here.

It's a work in progress but from last year to this year it's a noticeable improvement. He's a man child, I'll be watching him against Laughton on Thursday.
- ob18

Is Laughton still being used in a 'shutdown' role?

Is Laughton still being used in a 'shutdown' role?
- PhillySportsGuy

Yes, but this weekend he did play with Dal Colle a bit, whom he passed for the team lead in goals.

In 2 games against top prospect Sam Bennett & his line this past weekend Laughton's held them without a point.

Yes, but this weekend he did play with Dal Colle a bit, whom he passed for the team lead in goals.

In 2 games against top prospect Sam Bennett & his line this past weekend Laughton's held them without a point.
- ob18

Laughton for Ekblad

Luke Schenn is 24 years old. Who got the better of the deal is far from established. Defenseman take time to develop. The deal looks better for Toronto now. But who actually got the long term better of that deal, is far from being decided.

Keep telling yourself that.....while everyone else's eyes tell them it's a fleecing.


They paid Timonen what they paid him because that's what his value was. I'll as again. What player could they have gotten to replace Timonen for this Season? And what was the risk in signing him to that one year deal?
What other movement did it impair?

The ability to spend $ elsewhere....him at 6 mill. Is not his value.....to say he wouldn't have gotten it elsewhere is an understatement.


Same with what? If you want to add a player with Streit's skillset, which the Flyers badly needed, that is the cost. And he has done what he was brought in to do. And his Cap hit is reasonable.

For half the season he has....I don't need to re hatch my argument about term.


Fallen off of what? The question is, is he still a good player and worth 4.5M? I think he is, and it was a steal of a deal. If the Flyers need to trade a Center to add a defenseman that they need. Will they then have a need for a Center? There is no such thing as having too many good Centers. And either Schenn or Lecavalier can play on the Wing. And Lecavalier is not stunting anyone's growth. Both players are getting plenty of icetime in key situations.

This is the 4th straight year were injuries have become a problem.....his numbers are dropping.....he has never been a great defensive player....and his O is tailing off.....he is and always has been a center.....now 1/2 way through year one they are asking him to switch....before you answer....it is a big deal...especially to him.




Flyers aren't different from any other team in that regard.

Life's to short to prove my point....



The Flyers got good value for an unproven goalie at the time. Why does it matter if it's Bobrovsky or Mason in net? As long as the Flyers goaltending position is solidified. Mason's success this Season is quantified in games. What makes Bobrovsky so great? The 48 games last Season? Seems as though the same standard is not applied.
- MJL

Actually Bob was very solid for the most part in Philly....had a rough playoff but so did team as a whole......what makes him so good ? The vezina.......with the logic of a48 game schedule .....Mason is only 60 games in this year?

Laughton for Ekblad
- Jsaquella

Yes, but this weekend he did play with Dal Colle a bit, whom he passed for the team lead in goals.

In 2 games against top prospect Sam Bennett & his line this past weekend Laughton's held them without a point.
- ob18

Thats a pretty good line he shut down

would you trade this years first pick
OR
Laughton

for Kulikov?

Would Florida do that?

would you trade this years first pick
OR
Laughton

for Kulikov?

Would Florida do that?
- Marc D

No. He hasn't played well for Florida. He's someone I would be interested in trading for as a reclamation project, but he's not worth a significant asset.