ok, perhaps argument was too strong a word, but the content of the civil discussion has taken place here too many times to recall. nothing new here.

a - carter is what he is, solid 2-way player with a great shot, and some people like him for that and what he contributes.
b - others think he's soft, not dominant enough, shoots wide too much, isn't clutch, and wasn't much of a factor or reason for the kings winning the cup.

yes?
- hammarby31

I think we're free to discuss Jeff Carter if we choose to. Since the topic of the blog is the Olympics and he is on one of the Olympic teams.

ok, perhaps argument was too strong a word, but the content of the civil discussion has taken place here too many times to recall. nothing new here.

a - carter is what he is, solid 2-way player with a great shot, and some people like him for that and what he contributes.
b - others think he's soft, not dominant enough, shoots wide too much, isn't clutch, and wasn't much of a factor or reason for the kings winning the cup.

yes?
- hammarby31

c. all of the above

Yes what? I think we're free to discuss Jeff Carter if we choose to. Since the topic of the blog is the Olympics and he is on one of the Olympic teams.
- MJL

i think what originally started it for me was that given the riches of talent to choose from, i didnt think he was a great fit on a line with crosby. crosby does well with shifty, quick players who can keep up with him. carter, who i may have been a little harsh with outright calling slow, tends to need the puck in order to be effective, and then takes long strides in space in order to build up steam.

granted, kunitz himself is shuffling out there right now for sure, but given his style, carter, who i think is a very good player who ultimately falls short of his physical potential, isnt exactly a great match.

i think what originally started it for me was that given the riches of talent to choose from, i didnt think he was a great fit on a line with crosby. crosby does well with shifty, quick players who can keep up with him. carter, who i may have been a little harsh with outright calling slow, tends to need the puck in order to be effective, and then takes long strides in space in order to build up steam.

granted, kunitz himself is shuffling out there right now for sure, but given his style, carter, who i think is a very good player who ultimately falls short of his physical potential, isnt exactly a great match.
- stayinthefnnet

That's really hard for me to say. Sometimes players will mesh together and sometimes they won't. Carter doesn't have trouble keeping up with anyone. But he may be a better fit for a player who holds the puck more to buy time and space and then distributes the puck. Someone more like Thornton, who didn't make the team, or Getzlaff. But sometime it also takes time. Such a small sample size. I think it will all be better judged once they get closer to the bigger games, and have more to look at.

Carter is so great at defense: his GA20 against Joe Thornton is 0.911 GA20 without Thornton is 0.794

That's really hard for me to say. Sometimes players will mesh together and sometimes they won't. Carter doesn't have trouble keeping up with anyone. But he may be a better fit for a player who holds the puck more to buy time and space and then distributes the puck. Someone more like Thornton, who didn't make the team, or Getzlaff. But sometime it also takes time. Such a small sample size. I think it will all be better judged once they get closer to the bigger games.
- MJL

definitely. the notion of chemistry is almost laughable given such a small time to prepare and sample size that we have to go off of. but yeah, i agree with that assessment of pairing him with a thornton or getzlaf. they strike me as more of a patient, hold the puck, wait for it to develop and set, and then thread the set up. crosby is a constant whirlwind of buzzing and quick passes to and fro

definitely. the notion of chemistry is almost laughable given such a small time to prepare and sample size that we have to go off of. but yeah, i agree with that assessment of pairing him with a thornton or getzlaf. they strike me as more of a patient, hold the puck, wait for it to develop and set, and then thread the set up. crosby is a constant whirlwind of buzzing and quick passes to and fro
- stayinthefnnet

That small time to prepare and to build chemistry was why it was smart to have players like Kunitz and other situations where the chemistry is already there.

webang 2 for instigating

Curious to hear from Flyer fans a few years later....

Do you think the Flyers would be better if the had kept Sharp, Williams, Carter and Richards?

I know Richards and Carter have been debated to death but people forget how good Williams and Sharp are.

i realize its hard to say after winning by 6. but still. its austria. and a few of the goals were pretty soft. they arent choking by any means, but its not as if they have been this unstoppable dynamo shift after shift. forwards are still looking a little off
- stayinthefnnet

No no that was a terrified face because I agree with you.

Once Canada ACTUALLY gets going....just pack it in folks

I dont think you can say carter doesnt score clutch goals. See game 2 overtime SCF vs NJ. See WCF hat trick vs Phoenix. He was our best forward against the Hawks last year in WCF with Richards hurt and brown and kopitar doing nothing in that series.

Curious to hear from Flyer fans a few years later....

Do you think the Flyers would be better if the had kept Sharp, Williams, Carter and Richards?

I know Richards and Carter have been debated to death but people forget how good Williams and Sharp are.
- QuicksEnnormous

I don't think anyone on this board forgets how good Patrick Sharp is and how great Matt Ellison is

I think we're free to discuss Jeff Carter if we choose to. Since the topic of the blog is the Olympics and he is on one of the Olympic teams.
- MJL

the answer to my question is yes, but feel free to discuss the same things over and over and over again.

I disagreed with a lot of the team Canada selections.

Both Giroux and St Louis would have made my team over some of the names chosen for the initial team, especially Nash, Kunitz and Marleau.

While they will likely still medal and strongly contend for the gold, there's no way I'd take Kunitz over both St Louis and Giroux, from a talent and situational standpoint.

I get the whole, "He has chemistry with Crosby" stuff, but most players see their PPG go up playing with Crosby. It's not that Kunitz is a bad player or that he's Warren Young 2.0, it's that he's a 2nd line talent away from Crosby and the Canadian team passed up better players, who could easily do well with Crosby.

I think St Louis and Carter flanking Crosby would be a fantastic line for Canada, but they're stuck playing Kunitz with Crosby.

Curious to hear from Flyer fans a few years later....

Do you think the Flyers would be better if the had kept Sharp, Williams, Carter and Richards?

I know Richards and Carter have been debated to death but people forget how good Williams and Sharp are.
- QuicksEnnormous

The returns the Flyers got from both Carter and Richards were very good. The two highest scoring players involved in those trades since those deals were made are Jakub Voracek and Wayne Simmonds. Bryaden Schenn and Sean Couturier have also become solid NHLers, who still have a ton of potential.

Trading Williams and Sharp turned out to be bad moves, simply because the returns for each was either not good or ended up being a short term fix.

They traded Williams for Danny Markov, who was a key contributor to the run to the 2004 ECF. Unfortunately, after the season killing lockout, the Flyers traded Markov away for draft picks and signed Derian Hatcher & Mike Rathje...meaning they gave Williams away for a few months of Markov.

Sharp was still really just a prospect when he was traded for another prospect. At the time of the trade, a lot of smart hockey folks called it a pretty even swap. Unfortunately Sharp developed into a very good scoring winger and Matt Ellison didn't develop much at all.

It's hard to lump them together, because the trades happened almost 7 or 8 years apart. Not one of the deals specifically killed the Flyers, but they definitely didn't get enough in return for either Williams or Sharp.

The returns the Flyers got from both Carter and Richards were very good. The two highest scoring players involved in those trades since those deals were made are Jakub Voracek and Wayne Simmonds. Bryaden Schenn and Sean Couturier have also become solid NHLers, who still have a ton of potential.

Trading Williams and Sharp turned out to be bad moves, simply because the returns for each was either not good or ended up being a short term fix.

They traded Williams for Danny Markov, who was a key contributor to the run to the 2004 ECF. Unfortunately, after the season killing lockout, the Flyers traded Markov away for draft picks and signed Derian Hatcher & Mike Rathje...meaning they gave Williams away for a few months of Markov.

Sharp was still really just a prospect when he was traded for another prospect. At the time of the trade, a lot of smart hockey folks called it a pretty even swap. Unfortunately Sharp developed into a very good scoring winger and Matt Ellison didn't develop much at all.

It's hard to lump them together, because the trades happened almost 7 or 8 years apart. Not one of the deals specifically killed the Flyers, but they definitely didn't get enough in return for either Williams or Sharp.
- Jsaquella

but but but that doesn't work for the whole flyers suck thingie !

but but but that doesn't work for the whole flyers suck thingie !
- -davies-

Well, the fact is...they don't suck.

I disagreed with a lot of the team Canada selections.

Both Giroux and St Louis would have made my team over some of the names chosen for the initial team, especially Nash, Kunitz and Marleau.

While they will likely still medal and strongly contend for the gold, there's no way I'd take Kunitz over both St Louis and Giroux, from a talent and situational standpoint.

I get the whole, "He has chemistry with Crosby" stuff, but most players see their PPG go up playing with Crosby. It's not that Kunitz is a bad player or that he's Warren Young 2.0, it's that he's a 2nd line talent away from Crosby and the Canadian team passed up better players, who could easily do well with Crosby.

I think St Louis and Carter flanking Crosby would be a fantastic line for Canada, but they're stuck playing Kunitz with Crosby.
- Jsaquella

They should've either taken Marleau and Thornton, or Carter and Richards if they were going for the whole quick chemistry thing. They should've taken St Louis originally, for that matter, and then replaced Stamkos with someone else when it was certain he wasn't going. And they also should've taken Seabrook over someone like Hamhuis to match the chem there with Keith. I feel like they didn't really commit to the quick chemistry angle they were preaching, they just sort of went half way.

thanks I didnt know who the Flyers received in the Williams trade but he might be my favorite King. He constantly gets run over and comes back up ready for more the guy has unbelievable heart. Not to mention he is Mr. Game 7.

I will say I think Brayden Schenn and Wayne Simmonds > Mike Richards, However without Richards the Kings dont have a championship banner hanging in the rafters so I'm ok with it. We needed the leadership and experience that MR brought.

Wayne Simmonds scores a goal vs Ducks then takes out Getzlaf in a fight
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roMPetM2ie4

They should've either taken Marleau and Thornton, or Carter and Richards if they were going for the whole quick chemistry thing. They should've taken St Louis originally, for that matter, and then replaced Stamkos with someone else when it was certain he wasn't going. And they also should've taken Seabrook over someone like Hamhuis to match the chem there with Keith. I feel like they didn't really commit to the quick chemistry angle they were preaching, they just sort of went half way.
- JAKEw1234

Yeah, that "quick chemistry" stuff was really overplayed. They took Perry and Getzlaf, but both of them were deserving to go on their own merits. Kuntiz is there because of his level of production with Crosby.

Without Crosby, Kunitz is still a good, solid NHLer. But he'd never be under consideration for the Olympics otherwise.

Sewell, NJ native.

He should really remain on teams boards, how high who knows.
- ob18

He's very young, he could certainly mature as he ages. If the skill and talent is there, I'd still take a shot on him.

thanks I didnt know who the Flyers received in the Williams trade but he might be my favorite King. He constantly gets run over and comes back up ready for more the guy has unbelievable heart. Not to mention he is Mr. Game 7.

I will say I think Brayden Schenn and Wayne Simmonds > Mike Richards, However without Richards the Kings dont have a championship banner hanging in the rafters so I'm ok with it. We needed the leadership and experience that MR brought.

Wayne Simmonds scores a goal vs Ducks then takes out Getzlaf in a fight
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roMPetM2ie4
- QuicksEnnormous

Williams is a damned good player. Markov was a great addition for the short time he was a Flyer, but they dumped him soon after the lockout, for whatever reason.

The Kings really needed a guy like Richards. It's hard to argue with the results. The Flyers were far more hurt by losing Pronger and the mediocre team defensive play & uneven goaltending of Bryzgalov than trading either Carter or Richards, though.

Curious to hear from Flyer fans a few years later....

Do you think the Flyers would be better if the had kept Sharp, Williams, Carter and Richards?

I know Richards and Carter have been debated to death but people forget how good Williams and Sharp are.
- QuicksEnnormous

Sharp's a no brainer and I always loved Wlliams. As far as the other 2 go, I'd rather have Voracek and Couturier over Carter and Simmonds and B Schenn over Richards

Williams is a damned good player. Markov was a great addition for the short time he was a Flyer, but they dumped him soon after the lockout, for whatever reason.

The Kings really needed a guy like Richards. It's hard to argue with the results. The Flyers were far more hurt by losing Pronger and the mediocre team defensive play & uneven goaltending of Bryzgalov than trading either Carter or Richards, though.
- Jsaquella

I still don't understand why they got rid of Markov so fast, he was a beast in the 04 playoffs.