I give you credit, but you'd have better luck moving an 18 wheeler by tying it to a 3 year old's tricycle than getting some of these people to admit they could be wrong or that statistical analysis is something more than voodoo or horsepoop. It's obvious you're not watching the games and just throwing numbers out there.

But hey, the last four teams to win the Stanley Cup admit they use analytics, and what do they know compared to a bunch of folks avoiding their jobs on a hockey website?
- Jsaquella

Most of us agree that analytics have a spot in the NHL. We just don't think they're the end all be all. There are so many more variables in a team sport than baseball.

Obviously, if our defenseman aren't Shea Weber they are awful.
- PhillySportsGuy

i was wondering why nashville had won the last 4 cups. now i know.

Sorry,
this team is not going anywhere if they make the playoffs.
Defence will kill them.
Kimmo's too old, Coburn too sloppy, Grossman is one hit away from a concussion, Schenn has cement in his skates, Mez , well coach scratches him from games for a reason, Streit is just bad, Gus same as Mez.

I cant believe the trade of JVR for Schenn.
Did someone believe reuniting the Schenn brothers would drive Luke to be the next Shea Weber...someone is blind...and im actually interested in scouting report on Luke Schenn when he was drafted, he went number 5 i think, I dont know how, this was a sad sad trade.
Im upset when I watch this team play, I actually had to turn off many games this year earlier than later.
They are playing ok now, but just watch them, they are awful.
- FlyerGuy1

Their record says that they are not awful. And no one including the Flyers brass thought that Luke Schenn would be the next Shea Weber.
And the Flyers defenseman as individuals are all good players. It's just not the right mix.

i was wondering why nashville had won the last 4 cups. now i know.
- stayinthefnnet

#1 rule for irrational fan hood: If he's not great, he's awful.

Most of us agree that analytics have a spot in the NHL. We just don't think they're the end all be all. There are so many more variables in a team sport than baseball.
- PhillySportsGuy

A lot of people seem too busy shredding them to notice that not a single proponent of using advanced stats has either said they are the end all, be all or has tried to use them as such. Nobody that posts here is using the numbers in a vacuum or without some context.

They've been used to show trends, bad and good, and rather than discuss what they do show, it's immediately turned into another 20 page debate on their validity.

That's where it gets to be tiresome and not worth the hassle.

Hey, I resemble that last comment!
- BulliesPhan87

I thought you resembled Scott Baio

I give you credit, but you'd have better luck moving an 18 wheeler by tying it to a 3 year old's tricycle than getting some of these people to admit they could be wrong or that statistical analysis is something more than voodoo or horsepoop. It's obvious you're not watching the games and just throwing numbers out there.

But hey, the last four teams to win the Stanley Cup admit they use analytics, and what do they know compared to a bunch of folks avoiding their jobs on a hockey website?
- Jsaquella

It's not the analytics themselves that some are against. It's the misuse of them. Used correctly in the right context, they have some value.

Their record says that they are not awful. And no one including the Flyers brass thought that Luke Schenn would be the next Shea Weber.
And the Flyers defenseman as individuals are all good players. It's just not the right mix.
- MJL

yeah the mix is definitely an issue. although luke schenn is one that just doesnt really impress me much.

It's not the analytics themselves that some are against. It's the misuse of them. Used correctly in the right context, they have some value.
- MJL

i think they have a good deal of value if used in the right context. but the context is the tricky part.

yeah the mix is definitely an issue. although luke schenn is one that just doesnt really impress me much.
- stayinthefnnet

He hasn't had a great year, but I like him a lot as a player. Has to show more consistency.

A lot of people seem too busy shredding them to notice that not a single proponent of using advanced stats has either said they are the end all, be all or has tried to use them as such. Nobody that posts here is using the numbers in a vacuum or without some context.

They've been used to show trends, bad and good, and rather than discuss what they do show, it's immediately turned into another 20 page debate on their validity.

That's where it gets to be tiresome and not worth the hassle.
- Jsaquella

I can't speak for everyone, but I feel it has a place. I think it should be used along with a variety of other methods.

yeah the mix is definitely an issue. although luke schenn is one that just doesnt really impress me much.
- stayinthefnnet

He's very streaky. His stretch just before the break was very strong. He was something like plus 8 over the last 10 games.

Edit: Plus 10 over the last 6 games!

Their record says NOT...but like I said , watch them play....Mason has saved their skin numerous times.
Playoffs where it counts if they get in with a weak Metropolitan division too.
Right mix?
No one one would have signed Streit for that much money and term, so he wont mix in anywhere, hes just bad. Homer was desperate and that signing showed it.
I would have rather had Lauridsen play and a few other young guys and blow the year instead of watching this.
Trying and trying every year to get through with bits and pieces that no other team wants.
Pronger was our hope and we lost him....he could make the pieces work, now forget it.

He hasn't had a great year, but I like him a lot as a player. Has to show more consistency.
- MJL

true. maybe his ssues wouldnt look so glaring to me if he wasnt such a repetitive mold of a player for you guys. i still think him and grossman, and to a lesser extent coburn, are all too similar.

He's very streaky. His stretch just before the break was very strong. He was something like plus 8 over the last 10 games.
- PhillySportsGuy

now now. you cant berate stats one moment and then use them to attempt to prove something to me the next

Their record says NOT...but like I said , watch them play....Mason has saved their skin numerous times.
Playoffs where it counts if they get in with a weak Metropolitan division too.
Right mix?
No one one would have signed Streit for that much money and term, so he wont mix in anywhere, hes just bad. Homer was desperate and that signing showed it.
I would have rather had Lauridsen play and a few other young guys and blow the year instead of watching this.
Trying and trying every year to get through with bits and pieces that no other team wants.
Pronger was our hope and we lost him....he could make the pieces work, now forget it.
- FlyerGuy1

I thought Mason was a part of the team

Most of us agree that analytics have a spot in the NHL. We just don't think they're the end all be all. There are so many more variables in a team sport than baseball.
- PhillySportsGuy

Each side is accusing the other side of lack of context. Whether you are for or against them. Need to find a middle ground. When they first came around I was very skeptical and resistant to them. But they became so much of the talk in the mainstream, that I've taken the time to look at them and learn about them. I think they have some value and can paint a picture of what happens out there. But the problem becomes when simple Corsi becomes more then just showing what happened in terms of possession and a shot differential, and becomes a definitive metric on how a player is playing. Just take it for what it says. No more no less.

Same thing with simple plus/minus and all it's flaws. Take it for what it says. A player who is +30 was just on the ice for 30 more goals scored then against. Nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't say a player is a good or a bad defensive player.

now now. you cant berate stats one moment and then use them to attempt to prove something to me the next
- stayinthefnnet

I never berated them. I minored in statistics!

Yes he is part of the team , sometimes stands alone though.

Each side is accusing the other side of lack of context. Whether you are for or against them. Need to find a middle ground. When they first came around I was very skeptical and resistant to them. But they became so much of the talk in the mainstream, that I've taken the time to look at them and learn about them. I think they have some value and can paint a picture of what happens out there. But the problem becomes when simple Corsi becomes more then just showing what happened in terms of possession and a shot differential, and becomes a definitive metric on how a player is playing. Just take it for what it says. No more no less.

Same thing with simple plus/minus and all it's flaws. Take it for what it says. A player who is +30 was just on the ice for 30 more goals scored then against. Nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't say a player is a good or a bad defensive player.
- MJL

so theres a chance OV actually is a good defensive player?

true. maybe his ssues wouldnt look so glaring to me if he wasnt such a repetitive mold of a player for you guys. i still think him and grossman, and to a lesser extent coburn, are all too similar.
- stayinthefnnet

It's about the mix, not the individual players. Add an all around 2 way defenseman that can play high minutes in all situations. Move players in different roles such as Grossmann to the 3rd pair, and the Flyers defense looks and performs a whole lot differently.

so theres a chance OV actually is a good defensive player?

- stayinthefnnet

You can make a stat say anything you want it to say, for the most part! That's part of the problem!

i think they have a good deal of value if used in the right context. but the context is the tricky part.
- stayinthefnnet

It's not that tricky. Get a fairly large sample size, and look at several different sets of stats. You can't just use one game where the winning team got out shot & out Corsi'd. You can't just use a three game stretch to truly analyze a player's performance.

In the example given today, Tomahawk used data that was taken from a sample size that included 30 teams each playing between 57 or 60 games. That's not some strange context, it's a large sample size that shows trends over a 5 month period.

Yet the immediate reaction wasn't to respond to what the stats showed, it was yet another attack on their validity.

Far too many people will attack the stats that don't agree with their opinions rather than look at what those stats are telling us. If somebody shows me a stat that disagrees with a point I'm making, I'm going to look at what that stat is saying, rather than immediately call the stat faulty.

Trade for a number 1 Dman before the deadline:

PHI: WEBER
NSH: Lecavalier (NTC) , Read, Morin, Laugton + 1st
(and we retain 2M on Vinny 4.5 caphit)


or

PHI: Voynov
LA: Read, Morin, Gustafsson + 1ST

it's going to hit 70 later this week in new mexico.
- hammarby31

74 on Friday
76 on Saturday
78 on Sunday

In austin texas......