I missed the game, did Hartley start the 4th line again? Somebody told me he did, wondering if it's true or not.

Retain Salary on bigger Contracts they trade.

Take back undesirable contracts in trade.

Sign free agents to higher salary, short term to bridge the gap until when the kids will be up for their next contracts.

Retain half of Wideman's contract if it will get you a much better return in the trade.

Should Dany Heatley (as an example) be offered 5 mil a year? Not any more. But if signing him to that for 2 years gets the Flames to the Cap floor, and bridges the time until the kids are negotiating their second contracts then that is what may need to be done.

If Detroit wants out from under Steven Weiss, then maybe take that contract on for a few years. It may make them willing to give up more in trade by allowing them to go after a bigger named UFA (Vanek)

Right now the flames have the ability to take on those contracts or spend that money as it is only bridge that gap in the re-build. It may not be ideal, but it allows them to make that cap floor for this period of time with rookie contracts.
- dal_johnson

I don't see why they won't do this, I mean they spent to the cap on a team that consistently finished 9th. Why not spend the money to make the team a real threat, sooner?

I missed the game, did Hartley start the 4th line again? Somebody told me he did, wondering if it's true or not.
- Saskabush

Yeah, but the flyers started Girioux, Hartnell and Voarcek.

And guess what our line didn't jump them like all Vancouver fans players and coaches just assumed they would do. Maybe Tortorella could have diffused the situation instead of contributing to it.

Not every physical heavy weight is John Scott and will just grab the highly skilled guy in front of him (Kessel). some do have their heads about them and stick to that unwritten code.

I don't see why they won't do this, I mean they spent to the cap on a team that consistently finished 9th. Why not spend the money to make the team a real threat, sooner?
- Saskabush

I do see how it is harder to swallow though. At least before they spent to the cap with the intent of succeeding. Whether that worked out or was misguided that was the intent.

Now they essentially have to "throw away" the money on some of these players, but the bigger picture has to be considered here. If retaining salary, or taking a bad contract means that a trading partner like Detroit or Anaheim will give up a high prospect or a first round pick, then it is worth the price. The free agency part is just to tie things over. And who knows there, a player may work out. Heatley (as an example) may find his touch again. Then you can consider keeping him, or in turn flip him at a deadline for even more assets. If not, then in a couple years you say good bye to him and call it good.

I don't see why they won't do this, I mean they spent to the cap on a team that consistently finished 9th. Why not spend the money to make the team a real threat, sooner?
- Saskabush

Essentially the Flames would be "buying" draft picks or better prospects. Fine by me.

Colin Dambrauskas: Flames Sign Russell, Flames @ Flyers Post Game, The Olympic Break
- Colin Dambrauskas

Who will be the 'core' once the season ends?
I see it as: Hudler, Stajan, Giordano, Russell, Monahan, Brodie, Backlund and maybe Ramo?
Leaving out the unproven young kids, the vets who should leave, and the ones who won't be on the club for 15-16

Who will be the 'core' once the season ends?
I see it as: Hudler, Stajan, Giordano, Russell, Monahan, Brodie, Backlund and maybe Ramo?
Leaving out the unproven young kids, the vets who should leave, and the ones who won't be on the club for 15-16
- FLflames34

I don't think that this team has a core yet, and I don't think that they should.

To me the rebuild is about building and establishing that core. There may be some that the hope is to be part of that core, but it's too early to label them as that yet.

I do see how it is harder to swallow though. At least before they spent to the cap with the intent of succeeding. Whether that worked out or was misguided that was the intent.

Now they essentially have to "throw away" the money on some of these players, but the bigger picture has to be considered here. If retaining salary, or taking a bad contract means that a trading partner like Detroit or Anaheim will give up a high prospect or a first round pick, then it is worth the price. The free agency part is just to tie things over. And who knows there, a player may work out. Heatley (as an example) may find his touch again. Then you can consider keeping him, or in turn flip him at a deadline for even more assets. If not, then in a couple years you say good bye to him and call it good.
- dal_johnson

True enough. But it would help if they think of it as an investment, rather than an expense, that should help persuade ownership. Teams make the big bucks after lengthy playoff runs. Show him the books from 04, and I bet they sign the checks.

Yeah, but the flyers started Girioux, Hartnell and Voarcek.

And guess what our line didn't jump them like all Vancouver fans players and coaches just assumed they would do. Maybe Tortorella could have diffused the situation instead of contributing to it.

Not every physical heavy weight is John Scott and will just grab the highly skilled guy in front of him (Kessel). some do have their heads about them and stick to that unwritten code.
- dal_johnson

Ya, just wanting to make sure so I can rub it in Canucks fans faces when they try to defend Torts and/or bash Hartley.

I don't think that this team has a core yet, and I don't think that they should.

To me the rebuild is about building and establishing that core. There may be some that the hope is to be part of that core, but it's too early to label them as that yet.
- dal_johnson

While I agree with your main point, it isn't necessarily too early to define who may be in uniform when they could legitimately consider trying to make the playoffs again. The reason I brought it up was Russell's curious use of the word. It certainly opens up the prognosticator question of who that may be. Give one or two, I think the group I highlighted is a start. None are as prolific as what Iggy/Kipper and other revolving core members may have been (yet) but I could see all (save maybe Ramo) have a solid role on a contending team if it were to happen 2-4 yrs down the road.

Any that I noted you would exclude from this?

The roster is in a similar place to the Flames squad of the 82-84 range. Certaimly no emergence of Theo/Nieuwy/Mac/Vernon/Suter yet...but some important building blocks seem to be emerging.

I do see how it is harder to swallow though. At least before they spent to the cap with the intent of succeeding. Whether that worked out or was misguided that was the intent.

Now they essentially have to "throw away" the money on some of these players, but the bigger picture has to be considered here. If retaining salary, or taking a bad contract means that a trading partner like Detroit or Anaheim will give up a high prospect or a first round pick, then it is worth the price. The free agency part is just to tie things over. And who knows there, a player may work out. Heatley (as an example) may find his touch again. Then you can consider keeping him, or in turn flip him at a deadline for even more assets. If not, then in a couple years you say good bye to him and call it good.
- dal_johnson

This is a very good point with regards to July. Though I don't think Heatley will ever play in Calgary, for whatever slight he has against the city, these are acquired assets to be flipped later if they turn a gain. If they turn a loss, a rebuilding team can afford the hit, assuming the term is kept low.

Hudler for example....even though I know you would entertain a good offer (and I would not unless it was a severe overpay) is fantastic value. A perfect example of a UFA who outperforms their number and becomes a marketable asset to aid the build

In this rationale, I fully support a flier on a guy like Heatley or Weiss if the term is short.

While I agree with your main point, it isn't necessarily too early to define who may be in uniform when they could legitimately consider trying to make the playoffs again. The reason I brought it up was Russell's curious use of the word. It certainly opens up the prognosticator question of who that may be. Give one or two, I think the group I highlighted is a start. None are as prolific as what Iggy/Kipper and other revolving core members may have been (yet) but I could see all (save maybe Ramo) have a solid role on a contending team if it were to happen 2-4 yrs down the road.

Any that I noted you would exclude from this?

The roster is in a similar place to the Flames squad of the 82-84 range. Certaimly no emergence of Theo/Nieuwy/Mac/Vernon/Suter yet...but some important building blocks seem to be emerging.
- FLflames34

I don't think that I would include Hudler, Stajan, Russell, or Ramo yet.

You say when the team is next ready to compete and move ahead in the playoffs. Well Hudler may not be here then. I think Stajan is here to help until the kids are ready. He is the experienced shield to give them a night off from the difficult players here and there. Russell may be, but if he was going to be I would have thought the contract would have been longer. And I don't see it in Ramo yet.

The others are those that they want to be.

I just see too much change coming in the next few years, and we can't have the core being 10 players. Would have to think that this years 1st round pick will be one to hopefully become part of the core. And next season I don't see this team excelling yet, so it may be a similar idea. Then there are players like Baertschi and Gaudreau that one would hope would become part of the core.

I think right now it is more about identifying those that will hopefully become part of the future core. Not establishing a core right now.

While I agree with your main point, it isn't necessarily too early to define who may be in uniform when they could legitimately consider trying to make the playoffs again. The reason I brought it up was Russell's curious use of the word. It certainly opens up the prognosticator question of who that may be. Give one or two, I think the group I highlighted is a start. None are as prolific as what Iggy/Kipper and other revolving core members may have been (yet) but I could see all (save maybe Ramo) have a solid role on a contending team if it were to happen 2-4 yrs down the road.

Any that I noted you would exclude from this?

The roster is in a similar place to the Flames squad of the 82-84 range. Certaimly no emergence of Theo/Nieuwy/Mac/Vernon/Suter yet...but some important building blocks seem to be emerging.
- FLflames34

I wouldn't include Hurdler or Stagnant in that group of "core players." They're place holders for some young kids that eventually prove themselves as core guys. Gio may be the only vet that will remain and cojld be considered a core player for many years.

I wouldn't include Hurdler or Stagnant in that group of "core players." They're place holders for some young kids that eventually prove themselves as core guys. Gio may be the only vet that will remain and cojld be considered a core player for many years.
- TandA4Flames

At times I can see Glencross in that group with Gio, but it's been hard to this season with him out so much.

I group Ramo as a place holder as well. On most other teams he would be the back up. Goalies are harder to tell though. I want to see what Gilles becomes, and in my mind, when it is time to really compete is when you go the free agency route and get a more established veteran goalie.

I don't think that I would include Hudler, Stajan, Russell, or Ramo yet.

You say when the team is next ready to compete and move ahead in the playoffs. Well Hudler may not be here then. I think Stajan is here to help until the kids are ready. He is the experienced shield to give them a night off from the difficult players here and there. Russell may be, but if he was going to be I would have thought the contract would have been longer. And I don't see it in Ramo yet.

The others are those that they want to be.

I just see too much change coming in the next few years, and we can't have the core being 10 players. Would have to think that this years 1st round pick will be one to hopefully become part of the core. And next season I don't see this team excelling yet, so it may be a similar idea. Then there are players like Baertschi and Gaudreau that one would hope would become part of the core.

I think right now it is more about identifying those that will hopefully become part of the future core. Not establishing a core right now.
- dal_johnson

Fair pts from both you and TandA. I see Stajan as having a bigger role, and potentially, a 3rd/4th C spot in the 2 to 4 yrs it will take to be contenders. He is maddeningly inconsistent in production, but very consistent with professionalism and effort.

Hudler is also of the age that he could resign in 15-16 if he wanted to retire a Flame. Seems like an all around good dude, and could certainly help the depth once more talent comes in. Unfortunately, I think Burke sells him...which sucks. Who knows though.

Ramo looks like a stopgap, with potential (much more than Berra) but Ortio/Gillies are likely to supplant him by then

Russell is the wild card.....the ultimate prove-it contract. He is still young enough as a Dman to assert himself to a higher pedigree. If he does, he could very well be 3/4 on a contending team for years to come.

Fair pts from both you and TandA. I see Stajan as having a bigger role, and potentially, a 3rd/4th C spot in the 2 to 4 yrs it will take to be contenders. He is maddeningly inconsistent in production, but very consistent with professionalism and effort.

Hudler is also of the age that he could resign in 15-16 if he wanted to retire a Flame. Seems like an all around good dude, and could certainly help the depth once more talent comes in. Unfortunately, I think Burke sells him...which sucks. Who knows though.

Ramo looks like a stopgap, with potential (much more than Berra) but Ortio/Gillies are likely to supplant him by then

Russell is the wild card.....the ultimate prove-it contract. He is still young enough as a Dman to assert himself to a higher pedigree. If he does, he could very well be 3/4 on a contending team for years to come.
- FLflames34

Those reasons for Stajan and Hudler to me are why I would possibly have them on this team, but I wouldn't establish them as the Core. To me the depth players don't make up the core. They are the pieces you put around the core to fill out and complete the team.

At times I can see Glencross in that group with Gio, but it's been hard to this season with him out so much.

I group Ramo as a place holder as well. On most other teams he would be the back up. Goalies are harder to tell though. I want to see what Gilles becomes, and in my mind, when it is time to really compete is when you go the free agency route and get a more established veteran goalie.
- dal_johnson

I don't know why, but other than a good 1 and a half year stretch, I see Glencross as very average. Perhaps overrated by Flames fans even. Not only is he the Jeckyl and Hyde that epitomizes the franchise post lockout (disappears on the road), he takes poor penalties and is becoming more injury prone.

They should only re-sign him if the cap hit is the same. Even then, I could really care less if he leaves

Those reasons for Stajan and Hudler to me are why I would possibly have them on this team, but I wouldn't establish them as the Core. To me the depth players don't make up the core. They are the pieces you put around the core to fill out and complete the team.
- dal_johnson

True, but I partially identify Core as a foundation for success/length of service. So I could easily see either emerging into an Otto role if fortunate enough to be around by then.

True, but I partially identify Core as a foundation for success/length of service. So I could easily see either emerging into an Otto role if fortunate enough to be around by then.
- FLflames34

My list of core players:

1. Sean Monahan



But seriously, I don't view any of the vets now as our core. They are here to get us through the rebuild. To me the core should be 3 or 4 forwards (preferably 2 elite centermen), and 2 or 3 top level defensemen (hopefully one of them a franchise level like Doughty, or Pietrangelo), all of them younger players who grow with the team. Outside of our vets I see a few players who could stick around and become the vets when we acquire our core (Backlund, Brodie, maybe Russell). Right now Money is the only true core player in my eyes, with guys like Baert Gaudreau, Poirer and Klimchuk having the potential to be part of that core (though I don't know if any of them will ever be the same level as Money)

For me we still need that top defenseman, and one more potential elite centre. I'm thinking Chicago style core-- 2 elite (Toews and Kane) plus (Hossa, and Sharp) and Seabrook and Keith on d. I think we have one elite in Money, and at least two who could become Hossa and Sharp level guys in Poirer Gaudreau Baert. I see Brodie as a solid top 4, but we still need those next level d men.

My list of core players:

1. Sean Monahan



But seriously, I don't view any of the vets now as our core. They are here to get us through the rebuild. To me the core should be 3 or 4 forwards (preferably 2 elite centermen), and 2 or 3 top level defensemen (hopefully one of them a franchise level like Doughty, or Pietrangelo), all of them younger players who grow with the team. Outside of our vets I see a few players who could stick around and become the vets when we acquire our core (Backlund, Brodie, maybe Russell). Right now Money is the only true core player in my eyes, with guys like Baert Gaudreau, Poirer and Klimchuk having the potential to be part of that core (though I don't know if any of them will ever be the same level as Money)

For me we still need that top defenseman, and one more potential elite centre. I'm thinking Chicago style core-- 2 elite (Toews and Kane) plus (Hossa, and Sharp) and Seabrook and Keith on d. I think we have one elite in Money, and at least two who could become Hossa and Sharp level guys in Poirer Gaudreau Baert. I see Brodie as a solid top 4, but we still need those next level d men.
- Saskabush

Gio has hit elite in my mind. way under valued. Brodie is going to be a gio2. his first full year and the role he's played is pretty impressive.

I think brodie, backland and monahan are easily core. Gio and glen x as the vets. I say glen X because even though he hasn't played every team needs that kind of player...but he's a 3rd somedays 2nd liner.

With Minny fighting for the playoffs would love to send cammy that way as a package for Coyle. get the RW we need.

teams need RH D right now to, so might be the time to move Wideman. Also with Selanne probably done next year could unload a player to Anaheim that they would want to resign or keep (cammy, hudler, or even wideman), blacker+ wouldn't be a bad return.

Gio has hit elite in my mind. way under valued. Brodie is going to be a gio2. his first full year and the role he's played is pretty impressive.

I think brodie, backland and monahan are easily core. Gio and glen x as the vets. I say glen X because even though he hasn't played every team needs that kind of player...but he's a 3rd somedays 2nd liner.

With Minny fighting for the playoffs would love to send cammy that way as a package for Coyle. get the RW we need.

teams need RH D right now to, so might be the time to move Wideman. Also with Selanne probably done next year could unload a player to Anaheim that they would want to resign or keep (cammy, hudler, or even wideman), blacker+ wouldn't be a bad return.
- numbear

The. Only reason I don't include Gio is because I think he will be on the decline once we are competitive again. He could either be a top 4 veteran presence, or perhaps dealt to acquire the last few pieces of the puzzle in a few years.

You know....after reading this thread I must say; the Flames may not have the biggest following on this site, but they certainly have the best

You know....after reading this thread I must say; the Flames may not have the biggest following on this site, but they certainly have the best
- The-O-G

haha, yea you guys are good. Ive noticed the biggest difference and reason why the comments arent in the higher numbers, is that you all tend to agree with each other lol

now Ive been having a buuuusy morning and need to piece something together for you folks.

Gio has hit elite in my mind. way under valued. Brodie is going to be a gio2. his first full year and the role he's played is pretty impressive.

I think brodie, backland and monahan are easily core. Gio and glen x as the vets. I say glen X because even though he hasn't played every team needs that kind of player...but he's a 3rd somedays 2nd liner.

With Minny fighting for the playoffs would love to send cammy that way as a package for Coyle. get the RW we need.

teams need RH D right now to, so might be the time to move Wideman. Also with Selanne probably done next year could unload a player to Anaheim that they would want to resign or keep (cammy, hudler, or even wideman), blacker+ wouldn't be a bad return.
- numbear

Is Curtis Glencross just a slightly more skilled version of 2003-4 Shean Donovan?

The. Only reason I don't include Gio is because I think he will be on the decline once we are competitive again. He could either be a top 4 veteran presence, or perhaps dealt to acquire the last few pieces of the puzzle in a few years.
- Saskabush

I do include Gio as part of the core, certainly now and in the future as well. I agree that he'll likely be on the decline when we are back in the P.O. but I think he'll still be able to play as the #4 Dman and will remain the leader and captain. It is quite possible he is moved sooner rather than later should a younger player emerge as a leader quickly, something like Landeskog, but im not sure I see that happening.

As for GlenX, I thought at the start of the year that we needed him but the team seems fo be getting on just fine without. If we can use him in the off season to get a good return we should move him. I still like him but im not sure we need all of these vets still. 1 of GlenX or Hudler we could afford to move I think. But certainly 1 or 2nd vets should remain in our top 6th. Whether that's one of these 2 or Stempy or Cammi, we'll see what happens.

There Colin, I disagreed with someone. The hits should start to roll now.