Yea, I can see why. I really poorly mis-worded that. What I was trying to convey is that goals scored in games as an event don't happen alot when compared to shots attempted, blocked, or shots on net. Which is one way that Corsi has improved upon conventional +/- by using a much larger sample size of data.
- MJL

I know where you were trying to go and that it could've been worded better, but it got a chuckle out of me nevertheless.

I don't want to read into this what's not there, but it seems to me that the thought given here is that the defenseman are only responsible for getting the puck out. That zone breakouts aren't a team game that requires a cohesive 5 man unit operating as a team on the ice?
Now with that being said, yes, the Flyers have a poor mix on defense, and they need better skill and more all around defenseman, to get better as a team. And Grossmann, and his lack of puck skills and puck moving ability, definitely contributes to that, and the weakness the Flyers have there.
But the reality is, that regardless of how well Grossmann plays, he is never going to be a good puck mover, or a driver of possession. He just does not have that ability.
- MJL

I like how you frame this as if I made some ignorant hockey analysis, but then finish by essentially agreeing with me.

I hate the Olympics break...hate it
- Jsaquella

It's way too long at the worst time of the year

Homer, just trade Grossmann for a bag of pucks so we can end this crap.

But even then I'm not sure this place wont argue over the pucks being used or not.

I hate the Olympics break...hate it
- Jsaquella

Seconded.

With gusto.

Homer, just trade Grossmann for a bag of pucks so we can end this crap.

But even then I'm not sure this place wont argue over the pucks being used or not.
- hereticpride

Game pucks or practice pucks?

Grossmann is a 5-6 D-man having to play more of a top 4 role and it exposes his weaknesses all the time.

Note: I have no stats to back up the above statement, I just watch the games.

It's way too long at the worst time of the year
- funmaster18

The timing is also bad, in terms of how they're playing...of course, the entire Metro division seems to have forgotten how to lose at the same time-or at least lose in regulation. Hopefully the break hurts them as much as the Flyers

Seconded.

With gusto.
- 77rams

It does give more attention to hockey, but I'm not sure that it increases attention for the NHL...Especially if the games are on TV at 4am

The timing is also bad, in terms of how they're playing...of course, the entire Metro division seems to have forgotten how to lose at the same time-or at least lose in regulation. Hopefully the break hurts them as much as the Flyers
- Jsaquella

They have a decent enough schedule with 14 home and only 9 away games left when play resumes.

GAON/60 and GFON/60 are not interpretive stats... which makes me think you don't fully grasp stat analysis, but that's another matter. All they tell us is what Grossman is on the ice for. That's it. There's nothing to interpret other than goals were scored.


- gollum

The interpretation comes in when stats like that are used to say a player hasn't been effective. You make my point here. All that tells us is that goals were scored, not who has been, or hasn't been effective. I can discuss any stat analytic in depth and I understand them just fine.

Right now, those stats STATE (as facts) that the Flyers are a weaker team with Grossman on the ice than any other D on the team. That is independent of whatever skills you may want to mention as a "yeah but..." response. You do not win hockey games if the other team is scoring more, and you are scoring less.


- gollum

Again, this is getting into a gray area. Grossmann is not the only player on the ice when the goals are scored. False positives and negatives are the fatal flaw of analytics. And again a conclusion is drawn here towards one player. And it's a correlation versus causation issue. Analytics, no matter how basic, do not equal performance.

Because, here's the thing... you don't actually need to be particularly good offensively or defensively to win, you just need to outscored the opponent. Grossman has NEVER in his career contributed offensively whatsoever. In fact, he's a negative drag to his teammates offensively. He has, however, provided even and stable defensive play that didn't hurt the team because the other team didn't score much... that isn't true right now. Maybe it's because of the 17 other skaters on the team each night, which is the basics premise of your defense. Whatever it is, it isn't working right now. But if you can't fix Grossman's on ice scoring numbers, or he can't, then he's part of the problem and not the solution.


- gollum

I don't disagree at all that Grossmann is a part of the problem. Both in terms of stretches of poor play that he has had this year. And because of his limited skill set. What I disagree with it two fold. One that Grossmann is THE problem. And that he doesn't offer anything positive to the team, with the skills that he is good at. And today's blog discusses what Grossmann, and player in a similar mold bring to a team.

And I willy fully admit I don't understand why he's had such a problem this year compared to previous years, but it is what it is... and trotting him out there night after night as if nothing is amiss is sticking your head in the sand.
- gollum

I do understand why it's been a problem this year, and I also realize that the grass isn't greener, and consider what would happen if another Flyers defenseman, other then Timonen, would be put in the same position, and the same situations.

I'm trying to turn this Russia Germany women's game into a drinking game any suggestions?

It does give more attention to hockey, but I'm not sure that it increases attention for the NHL...Especially if the games are on TV at 4am
- Jsaquella

They should make hockey an Olympic summer sport, like basketball, so schedules aren't interrupted and teams have a longer period to practice together.

Grossmann is a 5-6 D-man having to play more of a top 4 role and it exposes his weaknesses all the time.

Note: I have no stats to back up the above statement, I just watch the games.
- HockeyDog

Definitely true this year. In previous years, despite his flaws, I thought he was a perfectly fine #4 that could handle PK time without a problem. His flaws are really catching up with him this year, though. If he's not snuffing out the other team's chances, he quickly become an anchor because the team creates no offense with him out there. Right now the other team is scoring an extra goal every three games against the Flyers with Grossman out there.

The problem is that we don't have a lot of good options... Schenn has many of the same problems, but has the added bonus that he takes himself out of position for hits with some regularity. Mez is a total wildcard, Streit is what he is... a weak defensive player that creates some offense. So on and so forth.

I like how you frame this as if I made some ignorant hockey analysis, but then finish by essentially agreeing with me.
- gollum

I do not agree that any analytic can definitively point out one player as having been ineffective, or that any analytic can completely isolate one player as the cause for it. Hockey is too much of a team game.

I do however agree completely, that if the Flyers had a better player, with a more all around skill set in Grossmann's spot, that the Flyers would be a better team.

But they are two entirely different conversations.

They have a decent enough schedule with 14 home and only 9 away games left when play resumes.
- 77rams

Imo, the playoffs start as soon as the olympic break is over. 16 out of their 23 remaining games are against current playoff teams. Add in games with the capitals, devils, blue jackets and hurricanes who are all within 3 points of a playoff spot and it's an intense schedule.

Definitely true this year. In previous years, despite his flaws, I thought he was a perfectly fine #4 that could handle PK time without a problem. His flaws are really catching up with him this year, though. If he's not snuffing out the other team's chances, he quickly become an anchor because the team creates no offense with him out there. Right now the other team is scoring an extra goal every three games against the Flyers with Grossman out there.

The problem is that we don't have a lot of good options... Schenn has many of the same problems, but has the added bonus that he takes himself out of position for hits with some regularity. Mez is a total wildcard, Streit is what he is... a weak defensive player that creates some offense. So on and so forth.
- gollum

Regarding Grossmann, two years ago his ga20 was slightly higher (.898) than it is this year (.891).

Maybe people are just paying more attention to him this year and are noticing more of his mistakes.

When lauridsen comes up I don't want any corsi or fenwick crap about him. Let him play he's just a kid

When lauridsen comes up I don't want any corsi or fenwick crap about him. Let him play he's just a kid
- Just5

No what I'd love to see? Lauridsen put in Grossmann's spot.

Imo, the playoffs start as soon as the olympic break is over. 16 out of their 23 remaining games are against current playoff teams. Add in games with the capitals, devils, blue jackets and hurricanes who are all within 3 points of a playoff spot and it's an intense schedule.
- fecondo

Can't wait.

I'm calm but slow, sorry.
- 2731color

oh shoot my bad

To me it's quite simple. I've staunchly defended Grossmann, not because I feel that he is, or should be immune from criticism. But because in my opinion, he has been the recipient of a lot of unfair and inaccurate criticism.
To be completely clear, Grossmann's play at times, and his limitations as a player are a contributing factor to the results when he is on the ice. There is no doubt about that. And he deserves to be criticized for the mistakes he's made and the stretch of poor play he had through most of January.
But I also feel that the situations he plays in, who he plays with, and how he is employed on the ice, are all also large factors in the results when Grossmann is on the ice.

Great.....more Grossmann advanced stats debate


- KINGKENZO[img][/img]

damn I cant post pic. Its Pvt Pyle sitting on the toilet with his rifle in his mouth, scene from Full Metal Jacket

GAON/60 and GFON/60 are not interpretive stats... which makes me think you don't fully grasp stat analysis, but that's another matter. All they tell us is what Grossman is on the ice for. That's it. There's nothing to interpret other than goals were scored.

Right now, those stats STATE (as facts) that the Flyers are a weaker team with Grossman on the ice than any other D on the team. That is independent of whatever skills you may want to mention as a "yeah but..." response. You do not win hockey games if the other team is scoring more, and you are scoring less.

Because, here's the thing... you don't actually need to be particularly good offensively or defensively to win, you just need to outscored the opponent. Grossman has NEVER in his career contributed offensively whatsoever. In fact, he's a negative drag to his teammates offensively. He has, however, provided even and stable defensive play that didn't hurt the team because the other team didn't score much... that isn't true right now. Maybe it's because of the 17 other skaters on the team each night, which is the basics premise of your defense. Whatever it is, it isn't working right now. But if you can't fix Grossman's on ice scoring numbers, or he can't, then he's part of the problem and not the solution.

And I willy fully admit I don't understand why he's had such a problem this year compared to previous years, but it is what it is... and trotting him out there night after night as if nothing is amiss is sticking your head in the sand.
- gollum

I think it is because pairing Streit with Grossmann makes things so much worse for the Flyers this year.

If they are going to use NG 20 minutes a game, he really should be paired with a better skater and someone who can retrieve the puck and move it up the ice. Coburn or Gustafsson would be better then Streit.

I do believe part of the regression we've seen from Grossmann is because the paring of the two players brings out the worst in the two players.

If a dumb fan like myself sees this I am pretty sure the Flyers realize this too, and I hope their number one priority this off season is to figure out which D they are keeping and fixing the mix they have for next year.

I think it is because pairing Streit with Grossmann makes things so much worse for the Flyers this year.

If they are going to use NG 20 minutes a game, he really should be paired with a better skater and someone who can retrieve the puck and move it up the ice. Coburn or Gustafsson would be better then Streit.

I do believe part of the regression we've seen from Grossmann is because the paring of the two players brings out the worst in the two players.

If a dumb fan like myself sees this I am pretty sure the Flyers realize this too, and I hope their number one priority this off season is to figure out which D they are keeping and fixing the mix they have for next year.
- Marc D

Every one of your paragraphs starts with an I.

And it's in a pattern: I if I if