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Forums :: Blog World :: Brad Ratgen: Anti-Gay Doesn't Play for NHL, "You Can Play" and Yours Truly
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MnGump
Minnesota Wild
Location: Columbus, MN
Joined: 06.21.2012

Feb 9 @ 12:03 AM ET
Actually, I never assumed that you are prejudiced at all, I merely asserted that there IS hate, and that it needs to stop. Why not talk about it in a sports blog? A much more disturbing "trend" than being gay is the idea among teenagers (and older people) that it's not "cool" to talk or think about anything deeper than sports or the latest crappy rap song to come out. Isn't being American aboutnot being afraid to voice your opinion anywhere and anytime? You can say whatever you want, even that teenagers are turning gay because it's acceptable in our culture now, and they need somewhere to turn in their confusing prepubescent years. It's a dang shame, those kids used to just turn to drugs, but I'm sure that's a better lifestyle choice than being gay.
- gypsypunk01

There is hate in all aspects and all walks of life. Why pray tell should gays be the exception?! EVERYONE is discriminated against. Listen, if kids want to decide they're gay before they really even know who they are as human beings, then more power to them, maybe they see the error of their way and change their mind. By the grace of god one can only hope!! But I for one am not going to idley stand by and allow my son/daughter to make that decision merely because it's a better alternative to something like drugs... And I don't want my kids turning to drugs either. I just want them to live the cleanest, easiest life possible, life is hard enough without having to deal with the evil and cruelty that the people of this planet thrive on.
Tony Dean
Minnesota Wild
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Joined: 09.20.2008

Feb 9 @ 2:39 AM ET
There is hate in all aspects and all walks of life. Why pray tell should gays be the exception?! EVERYONE is discriminated against. Listen, if kids want to decide they're gay before they really even know who they are as human beings, then more power to them, maybe they see the error of their way and change their mind. By the grace of god one can only hope!! But I for one am not going to idley stand by and allow my son/daughter to make that decision merely because it's a better alternative to something like drugs... And I don't want my kids turning to drugs either. I just want them to live the cleanest, easiest life possible, life is hard enough without having to deal with the evil and cruelty that the people of this planet thrive on.
- MnGump


The best part Gump is that it doesn't matter what you believe or choose to accept when it comes to our children or human beings in general. What is paramount is the pursuit of happiness and if that means homosexuality well your JUDGEMENT means not a damn thing in my mind because you should/will always love and support your children. Sexuality is just a portion of the totality of a human being but it should never be used as a means to treat someone as a lesser or make them to feel as such. Maybe the most important lessen we learn as parents is humility because no matter our effort and best intention our children choose their path in life. I respect Brad so much for his humility and honesty to admit despite his natural instinct to protect his child without prejudice, he was also candid about not previously understanding human beings of a similar makeup nor being respectful of those human beings.

THE EASIEST WAY TO CHANGE YOUR PERSPECTIVE ABOUT SOMETHING YOU ARE OPPOSED TO OR IGNORANT TOWARDS IS TO HAVE A PERSON YOU LOVE BE INVOLVED OR AFFECTED BY IT. WE SHOULD ALL STRIVE FOR GROWTH AND BETTERMENT AS PEOPLE AND DISCRIMINATION AND DEGRIDATION WILL NEVER BE APART OF THAT PROCESS!
nayefj
Colorado Avalanche
Location: Colorado/Qatif, Saudi Arabia/القطيف
Joined: 02.04.2010

Feb 9 @ 3:09 AM ET
I don't hate, I just don't support the choice of lifestyle. And I firmly believe it's a choice, not something people are born with. I don't believe Sexual preference is a birth defect. There is a reason the anatomy of humans makes it impossible for like genders to procreate.

My problem with kids thinking they are gay is that in today's day and age, it's an easy escape from those awkward pimple face feelings of being in the embryo stages of puberty. Not knowing, or being around a group of people that introduce even the idea that the choice of being gay is a real option can certainly push kids to making that decision without the benefit of maturity andor the ability to comprehend what that decision means.
My point is simply this... Gay acceptance has not only made the decision making easier, but almost created a cop out or way for kids to make a personal statement. At one point I thought maybe to be different, but now I honestly think it's trendy and cool in many circles.
I'm not going to argue with you and tell you your wrong or even that I'm right. I have no problem agreeing to disagree. As I stated in my original post, I will do everything in my power as a parent to discourage my children from making the decision to live that lifestyle, even if it means telling them I think it's wrong. If they decide to do it anyway, I'll still support and love them the same I would otherwise.

Either way, I appreciate your candor and respect you as a supporting and loving parent and fundamentally good person.

- MnGump


Believe it all you want, but that doesn't mean it's true. Try not to be a slave to your own beliefs if you lack expertise in a certain area. If you firmly believe that 1+1=3, it doesn't make it right.

A plethora of medical doctors, psychologists and biologists disagree with you about homosexuality being a choice. They're experts, you aren't.

Way to go Brad. You should be proud of your son, as I'm sure he's proud for having you as his dad.
MnGump
Minnesota Wild
Location: Columbus, MN
Joined: 06.21.2012

Feb 9 @ 6:39 AM ET
Believe it all you want, but that doesn't mean it's true. Try not to be a slave to your own beliefs if you lack expertise in a certain area. If you firmly believe that 1+1=3, it doesn't make it right.

A plethora of medical doctors, psychologists and biologists disagree with you about homosexuality being a choice. They're experts, you aren't.

Way to go Brad. You should be proud of your son, as I'm sure he's proud for having you as his dad.

- nayefj

Gee, thanks for all your "expert" knowledge. First of all you don't have a clue as to what you're talking about, and secondly you really have no idea of what my background is nor my level of experience in the matters regarding human psychology. I appreciate your opinion, but that's all it is at this point. We are all allowed our opinion but let's not use it as some sort of pass for being right or wrong.
Mr_Clean
Location: PLAYOFFS?, MB
Joined: 08.09.2010

Feb 9 @ 10:34 AM ET
Gee, thanks for all your "expert" knowledge. First of all you don't have a clue as to what you're talking about, and secondly you really have no idea of what my background is nor my level of experience in the matters regarding human psychology. I appreciate your opinion, but that's all it is at this point. We are all allowed our opinion but let's not use it as some sort of pass for being right or wrong.
- MnGump


I'm no expert, but I know that in many countries in the world, homosexuals are told that they are essentially told they are Satan incarnate, and are many cases threatened with imprisonment or death if they're outed. Now, again, I'm no expert on human psychology, but it strikes me that being an "awkward, confused teen" wouldn't be enough to 'convince' someone to be gay in Iran or Saudi Arabia. If it's making a choice, like dying one's hair blue, would you do it if everyone would despise you and try to kill you?

You say yes. I say no. And we'll agree to disagree. But let's not act like every gay person in the world could possibly be that from watching Ellen or pride parades and thinking it would be some awesome experience.
nayefj
Colorado Avalanche
Location: Colorado/Qatif, Saudi Arabia/القطيف
Joined: 02.04.2010

Feb 9 @ 11:47 AM ET
I'm no expert, but I know that in many countries in the world, homosexuals are told that they are essentially told they are Satan incarnate, and are many cases threatened with imprisonment or death if they're outed. Now, again, I'm no expert on human psychology, but it strikes me that being an "awkward, confused teen" wouldn't be enough to 'convince' someone to be gay in Iran or Saudi Arabia. If it's making a choice, like dying one's hair blue, would you do it if everyone would despise you and try to kill you?

You say yes. I say no. And we'll agree to disagree. But let's not act like every gay person in the world could possibly be that from watching Ellen or pride parades and thinking it would be some awesome experience.

- Mr_Clean


A large part of my reasoning comes from the fact that I was born and raised in Saudi Arabia where there's such gross anti-gay propaganda stemming from the same tired old arguments, one of which is the proclamation that being gay is a choice. This is also a country where one can face execution for being caught having sex with someone of the same sex. Religious teachers and society often told us that gays are pedophiles and deviants and such. It didn't make sense to me, but there was a 1000 people who bought that garbage for every person who questioned it. You can't be talk about homosexuality in a positive without risking jail time, just like this law in Russia. Being pro-gay is "unislamic."

In Iraq, kids who dye their hair are targeted for random violence and murder by terrorists thinking they're gay and unnatural and undeserving of life.

It's just incredulous to me that many still buy the old arguments despite them being proven wrong over and over by a plethora of experts starting with the declassification of homosexuality as being a mental illness in the late '60s and decriminalizing it. Not that people are prone to listening to experts in matters they hold dear because it gives them anxiety, and others are just afraid of admitting they're wrong.

My sole consolation is that at least in the US the trend is headed towards acceptance, and the courts have already decided in favor of equality even though it'll be slow for it to spread throughout individual states.
MnGump
Minnesota Wild
Location: Columbus, MN
Joined: 06.21.2012

Feb 9 @ 12:43 PM ET
A large part of my reasoning comes from the fact that I was born and raised in Saudi Arabia where there's such gross anti-gay propaganda stemming from the same tired old arguments, one of which is the proclamation that being gay is a choice. This is also a country where one can face execution for being caught having sex with someone of the same sex. Religious teachers and society often told us that gays are pedophiles and deviants and such. It didn't make sense to me, but there was a 1000 people who bought that garbage for every person who questioned it. You can't be talk about homosexuality in a positive without risking jail time, just like this law in Russia. Being pro-gay is "unislamic."

In Iraq, kids who dye their hair are targeted for random violence and murder by terrorists thinking they're gay and unnatural and undeserving of life.

It's just incredulous to me that many still buy the old arguments despite them being proven wrong over and over by a plethora of experts starting with the declassification of homosexuality as being a mental illness in the late '60s and decriminalizing it. Not that people are prone to listening to experts in matters they hold dear because it gives them anxiety, and others are just afraid of admitting they're wrong.

My sole consolation is that at least in the US the trend is headed towards acceptance, and the courts have already decided in favor of equality even though it'll be slow for it to spread throughout individual states.

- nayefj

Honestly, I'm okay with acceptance. Although I disapprove, I also accept if that makes any sense. What I don't like is the fact that what was once merely a tolerance seeking movement now has become full blown acceptance by force and pretty much outright in your face flaunting by gay rights activists.

In other words I'm already tired of being forced to tread lightly while at the same time getting gay pride shoved down our throats to no end from the bleeding heart liberal sect of this country.

If your gay, fine, enjoy your freedom to be so, but myself and everyone else shouldn't be obligated to share in your joy. And honestly I think MORE people would be willing to accept if these activists and and the liberal agenda at large would simply tone it down a bit.

You don't see heterosexuals marching in a parade for the sole purpose of professing and celebrating their love for the opposite sex! If you're gay we're happy for you, but stop acting as if people aren't allowed to still disagree with your choice of lifestyle. People can be anti gay without hating. People that bring it to the level of hatred are probably dealing with their own demons, but like any other form of discrimination/phobia, it will most likely always exist.

nayefj
Colorado Avalanche
Location: Colorado/Qatif, Saudi Arabia/القطيف
Joined: 02.04.2010

Feb 9 @ 1:47 PM ET
Heterosexuals were never a historically persecuted segment of society that was told to feel ashamed and to hide or die. We don't have to flaunt our heterosexuality because we don't have to be afraid for our lives for holding hands with a member of the opposite sex in public or kissing them. It's something we take for granted that we're desensitized to.

Gay pride isn't frivolous showboating. It's refusing to stay in the closet and standing up and demanding equality. If you're being subjected to perpetual injustice, you fight or you give up. If you have a problem with the "displays" and "lifestyle," it's somewhat problematic because it doesn't really hurt you in any way. No one is forcing you to take off your shirt, lather yourself in glitter and go dance with a twink, and no one is forcing you to watch it.

People are choosing not to give up. Would you give up if you were being marginalized? Would you stay silent?

Plus, what is it that you feel about the gay "lifestyle"? Annoyance? Contempt? Irritation? I'm just trying to figure out the level of discomfort this makes you feel.
Mr_Clean
Location: PLAYOFFS?, MB
Joined: 08.09.2010

Feb 9 @ 2:13 PM ET
A large part of my reasoning comes from the fact that I was born and raised in Saudi Arabia where there's such gross anti-gay propaganda stemming from the same tired old arguments, one of which is the proclamation that being gay is a choice. This is also a country where one can face execution for being caught having sex with someone of the same sex. Religious teachers and society often told us that gays are pedophiles and deviants and such. It didn't make sense to me, but there was a 1000 people who bought that garbage for every person who questioned it. You can't be talk about homosexuality in a positive without risking jail time, just like this law in Russia. Being pro-gay is "unislamic."

In Iraq, kids who dye their hair are targeted for random violence and murder by terrorists thinking they're gay and unnatural and undeserving of life.

It's just incredulous to me that many still buy the old arguments despite them being proven wrong over and over by a plethora of experts starting with the declassification of homosexuality as being a mental illness in the late '60s and decriminalizing it. Not that people are prone to listening to experts in matters they hold dear because it gives them anxiety, and others are just afraid of admitting they're wrong.

My sole consolation is that at least in the US the trend is headed towards acceptance, and the courts have already decided in favor of equality even though it'll be slow for it to spread throughout individual states.

- nayefj


Well said. It truly is saddening that the experience of homosexuality is an experience of hatred in so many places. I was in Uganda a couple of years ago, and people there are virulently homophobic. People would talk to me, as a Westerner, and try to convince me of their views - that God believes homosexuality is wrong, that there is a 'gay secret society' trying to convert young men to homosexuality, and that for these two reasons, a person who is homosexual doesn't deserve to live.

So whenever I hear someone implying that homosexuality is a 'choice', I hear these Ugandans speaking. Someone in a Western society will need to pretend to be 'tolerant', but tolerance implies something is wrong: to say that it is a 'choice' implies that it is a wrong choice, a choice that people can be led to through brainwashing. To see that line of thinking brought to its natural conclusion - in a hateful, fearful society where to be gay is to face, at best, prison (and at worst, 'mob justice') - has made me incredibly intolerant of such modes of thinking.

At the end of the day, I cannot understand why any religious person would take these matters so much into their own hands. If there is a God, let Him judge... This is what I would tell the Ugandans. The only things that we should be judge over are the things that harm one another; feeling uncomfortable is not the same as being harmed.

End of story, in my books.
nayefj
Colorado Avalanche
Location: Colorado/Qatif, Saudi Arabia/القطيف
Joined: 02.04.2010

Feb 9 @ 2:34 PM ET
Well said. It truly is saddening that the experience of homosexuality is an experience of hatred in so many places. I was in Uganda a couple of years ago, and people there are virulently homophobic. People would talk to me, as a Westerner, and try to convince me of their views - that God believes homosexuality is wrong, that there is a 'gay secret society' trying to convert young men to homosexuality, and that for these two reasons, a person who is homosexual doesn't deserve to live.

So whenever I hear someone implying that homosexuality is a 'choice', I hear these Ugandans speaking. Someone in a Western society will need to pretend to be 'tolerant', but tolerance implies something is wrong: to say that it is a 'choice' implies that it is a wrong choice, a choice that people can be led to through brainwashing. To see that line of thinking brought to its natural conclusion - in a hateful, fearful society where to be gay is to face, at best, prison (and at worst, 'mob justice') - has made me incredibly intolerant of such modes of thinking.

At the end of the day, I cannot understand why any religious person would take these matters so much into their own hands. If there is a God, let Him judge... This is what I would tell the Ugandans. The only things that we should be judge over are the things that harm one another; feeling uncomfortable is not the same as being harmed.

End of story, in my books.

- Mr_Clean


Speaking of Uganda, this link might intrigue you. It's both informative and infuriating. It shows the influence that Scott Lively, an anti-gay evangelist, had in spreading hatred of gay people in Uganda and facilitated passing anti-gay laws there. The piece is in the form of comics and it's beautifully illustrated:

http://www.huffingtonpost...tml?utm_hp_ref=gay-voices

He claims that his religious and speech freedoms are being attacked but what he's doing is illegal even under US law.
gypsypunk01
Minnesota Wild
Location: Stillwater, MN
Joined: 01.28.2014

Feb 9 @ 2:41 PM ET
That badly shoved down your throat, huh? If you were suppressed and victimized for the last 1000 years for being a right wing Christian, and were finally in 2014 given political freedom to be who you are, I'm pretty sure you would want an effing parade too. This is America, please do not celebrate social justice and equality, that's definitely not why our ancestors came here or anything.
MnGump
Minnesota Wild
Location: Columbus, MN
Joined: 06.21.2012

Feb 9 @ 2:57 PM ET
Heterosexuals were never a historically persecuted segment of society that was told to feel ashamed and to hide or die. We don't have to flaunt our heterosexuality because we don't have to be afraid for our lives for holding hands with a member of the opposite sex in public or kissing them. It's something we take for granted that we're desensitized to.

Gay pride isn't frivolous showboating. It's refusing to stay in the closet and standing up and demanding equality. If you're being subjected to perpetual injustice, you fight or you give up. If you have a problem with the "displays" and "lifestyle," it's somewhat problematic because it doesn't really hurt you in any way. No one is forcing you to take off your shirt, lather yourself in glitter and go dance with a twink, and no one is forcing you to watch it.

People are choosing not to give up. Would you give up if you were being marginalized? Would you stay silent?

Plus, what is it that you feel about the gay "lifestyle"? Annoyance? Contempt? Irritation? I'm just trying to figure out the level of discomfort this makes you feel.

- nayefj

The celebrating and parading honestly doesn't bother me, what bothers me is people telling people they're bigots or homophobes if they disapprove or do not support it. Gays want to act like they're a minority like some ethnic group, as if a non supportive person is racist because he's anti gay. That is bullpoop in my opinion because a persons race is not an issue of morality.

As far as my personal feelings/issues go...

It's more annoyance than anything, but my true belief is that it is morally unethical. Do I think people are going to hell or god hates them for being gay? No. I feel it's not unlike most sins we commit on a daily basis. God will forgive so long as we repent.
Mr_Clean
Location: PLAYOFFS?, MB
Joined: 08.09.2010

Feb 9 @ 3:06 PM ET
Speaking of Uganda, this link might intrigue you. It's both informative and infuriating. It shows the influence that Scott Lively, an anti-gay evangelist, had in spreading hatred of gay people in Uganda and facilitated passing anti-gay laws there. The piece is in the form of comics and it's beautifully illustrated:

http://www.huffingtonpost...tml?utm_hp_ref=gay-voices

He claims that his religious and speech freedoms are being attacked but what he's doing is illegal even under US law.

- nayefj


Wow, excellent piece. I knew that certain American evangelicals were responsible for changing the culture of Uganda (also, with tragic results, causing Uganda's government to adopt an 'abstinence-based' anti-HIV strategy), but I had never put a face to those activities before!

Thanks for sharing, and for the interesting discussion.
MnGump
Minnesota Wild
Location: Columbus, MN
Joined: 06.21.2012

Feb 9 @ 3:15 PM ET
That badly shoved down your throat, huh? If you were suppressed and victimized for the last 1000 years for being a right wing Christian, and were finally in 2014 given political freedom to be who you are, I'm pretty sure you would want an effing parade too. This is America, please do not celebrate social justice and equality, that's definitely not why our ancestors came here or anything.
- gypsypunk01

Honestly it's the self righteous people like yourself that I'm talking about. You're not going to allow me my own opinion or point of view while you try to drive your own down my throat. So don't preach about "this is America" and then proceed to tell me I'm not allowed my point of view or that main stream thinking is always right.

I'm merely expressing my beliefs and calmly and reasonably defending them with my personal points of view. I'm not trying to change your thought process or opinions so please do me the courtesy of not trying to change mine
Mr_Clean
Location: PLAYOFFS?, MB
Joined: 08.09.2010

Feb 9 @ 3:17 PM ET
The celebrating and parading honestly doesn't bother me, what bothers me is people telling people they're bigots or homophobes if they disapprove or do not support it. Gays want to act like they're a minority like some ethnic group, as if a non supportive person is racist because he's anti gay. That is bullpoop in my opinion because a persons race is not an issue of morality.

As far as my personal feelings/issues go...

It's more annoyance than anything, but my true belief is that it is morally unethical. Do I think people are going to hell or god hates them for being gay? No. I feel it's not unlike most sins we commit on a daily basis. God will forgive so long as we repent.

- MnGump


Don't you think that's a big circular, though? If people aren't bothered by the 'celebrating and parading', they wouldn't complain about it. If they didn't complain about it, no-one would call them homophobes.

Ultimately, all that can be asked of some people is that they are tolerant. It sounds like you are at least tolerant, or trying to be. Some people aren't at all tolerant though, and I for one think it's unacceptable to promote hatred against any group of people, even if you think they are 'minor sinners' in some way. Any group of people who is targeted in this way deserve a chance to defend themselves.
gypsypunk01
Minnesota Wild
Location: Stillwater, MN
Joined: 01.28.2014

Feb 9 @ 3:27 PM ET
Honestly it's the self righteous people like yourself that I'm talking about. You're going to try tell me and explain to me why my beliefs and views are wrong while you try to drive your own beliefs down my throat. So don't preach about "this is America" and then proceed to tell me I'm not allowed my point of view or that main stream thinking is always right.

I'm merely expressing my beliefs and calmly and reasonably defending them with my personal points of view. I'm not trying to change your thought process or opinions so please give me the courtesy of not forcing yours on me.

- MnGump

I have yet to shove anything down your throat, sir. You are certainly entitled to those beliefs you hold dear, and you are obviously a not a hateful human being. I'm having a hard time trying to figure out where i forced my beliefs on you, though, when i only stated that you would feel the same if you were oppressed for your beliefs.
nayefj
Colorado Avalanche
Location: Colorado/Qatif, Saudi Arabia/القطيف
Joined: 02.04.2010

Feb 9 @ 3:44 PM ET
The celebrating and parading honestly doesn't bother me, what bothers me is people telling people they're bigots or homophobes if they disapprove or do not support it. Gays want to act like they're a minority like some ethnic group, as if a non supportive person is racist because he's anti gay. That is bullpoop in my opinion because a persons race is not an issue of morality.

As far as my personal feelings/issues go...

It's more annoyance than anything, but my true belief is that it is morally unethical. Do I think people are going to hell or god hates them for being gay? No. I feel it's not unlike most sins we commit on a daily basis. God will forgive so long as we repent.

- MnGump


Gays and lesbians don't really act like they're an ethnic group or race, but they are a persecuted minority. Most states still don't protect homosexuals from being fired from their jobs or eviction.

The only thing they have in common with the strife for race equality and women's rights is the equality part. They're not trying to make themselves look like a race. They ought to be a protected class, and the courts just made that clear recently.

If it's an issue of morals, then equality has to have weight because you can't have morality without equality. There's nothing inherently immoral about same-sex relations. It's only one's feelings and beliefs that make a person feel that homosexuality is immoral.

It has long been established that homosexuality is not a choice. That's why not agreeing with someone being gay is an attack on a personal, unchangeable trait. Arguing the use of words like bigotry and homophobia is mere semantics that diverts the discussion from the core issue.

Being non-caucasian, being a woman and being gay are all things in which choice is not a factor. That doesn't make them the same thing, but the common thing about them is that they're not voluntary or changeable. Disliking people for being any of the above is akin to disliking a cat for meowing or disliking the sea for being blue. It just doesn't make sense.

The bottom line is this: a person's sexual orientation is not an issue of immorality as much as is a person's race because they're both unchangeable.

Meanwhile religion is a choice.

I'm glad we're able to have this calm discussion, and I hope you didn't sense much maliciousness in my tone-deaf text.
MnGump
Minnesota Wild
Location: Columbus, MN
Joined: 06.21.2012

Feb 9 @ 3:51 PM ET
I have yet to shove anything down your throat, sir. You are certainly entitled to those beliefs you hold dear, and you are obviously a not a hateful human being. I'm having a hard time trying to figure out where i forced my beliefs on you, though, when i only stated that you would feel the same if you were oppressed for your beliefs.
- gypsypunk01

Every one of your posts in regards to any of mine have all contained hints of condescension, and moral superiority. Hence you obviously think my way of thinking and/or beliefs are wrong. So I guess you're not shoving your opinion down my throat, but you're more than subtly hinting that my way of thinking is wrong or should be questioned.
MnGump
Minnesota Wild
Location: Columbus, MN
Joined: 06.21.2012

Feb 9 @ 4:00 PM ET
Gays and lesbians don't really act like they're an ethnic group or race, but they are a persecuted minority. Most states still don't protect homosexuals from being fired from their jobs or eviction.

The only thing they have in common with the strife for race equality and women's rights is the equality part. They're not trying to make themselves look like a race. They ought to be a protected class, and the courts just made that clear recently.

If it's an issue of morals, then equality has to have weight because you can't have morality without equality. There's nothing inherently immoral about same-sex relations. It's only one's feelings and beliefs that make a person feel that homosexuality is immoral.

It has long been established that homosexuality is not a choice. That's why not agreeing with someone being gay is an attack on a personal, unchangeable trait. Arguing the use of words like bigotry and homophobia is mere semantics that diverts the discussion from the core issue.

Being non-caucasian, being a woman and being gay are all things in which choice is not a factor. That doesn't make them the same thing, but the common thing about them is that they're not voluntary or changeable. Disliking people for being any of the above is akin to disliking a cat for meowing or disliking the sea for being blue. It just doesn't make sense.

The bottom line is this: a person's sexual orientation is not an issue of immorality as much as is a person's race because they're both unchangeable.

Meanwhile religion is a choice.

I'm glad we're able to have this calm discussion, and I hope you didn't sense much maliciousness in my tone-deaf text.

- nayefj
no not at all. You articulate your view quite well and are not a bit ambiguous or sarcastic sounding. You are very good at simplifying the issue in making your points.
Sandus
Joined: 12.04.2009

Feb 11 @ 1:02 PM ET
The celebrating and parading honestly doesn't bother me, what bothers me is people telling people they're bigots or homophobes if they disapprove or do not support it. Gays want to act like they're a minority like some ethnic group, as if a non supportive person is racist because he's anti gay. That is bullpoop in my opinion because a persons race is not an issue of morality.

As far as my personal feelings/issues go...

It's more annoyance than anything, but my true belief is that it is morally unethical. Do I think people are going to hell or god hates them for being gay? No. I feel it's not unlike most sins we commit on a daily basis. God will forgive so long as we repent.

- MnGump

As I read this I have more and more mixed feelings. As a straight male with several close gay friends, I will always support their right to live with the same protections and freedoms that I enjoy. This doesn't mean I am a gay rights activist, it simply means that my beliefs coincide with the interests of the people I care deeply about. Now do I see a place for gay activism? Absolutely, until there is complete equality.

But then I think about how other things have been sensationalized in our society, and I can see how you might feel that there is too much. As we look at the burgeoning numbers of organic food producers and gluten-free products and restaurants, the almost-forced jingoism that pervades our sports, or even something so accepted as the "Christmas season" which starts earlier and earlier every year, it's easy to see how things might feel forced upon us, especially if we don't belong to that target group. But I think we lose sight of the true reasons these things exist in the first place: They improve people's lives. Two months worth of Christmas makes lots of people happy, as does national pride. People with gluten allergies can finally eat and enjoy things that they never could before.

And I think this is where the gay rights movement is strongest, the goal being happiness for its group members. I don't think anyone, regardless of personal beliefs, would ever disdain or feel annoyance toward a group whose interest is in securing the happiness of its members. Where the issue lies is the morality, and morality is always always always founded in personal beliefs of the individual.

Who are we to say what's right and what isn't? Veal is raised "unethically" but it's still packaged and sold. Some people avoid veal for this reason. Others protest it. Others will say that it's simply nature, that we are omnivores and we can eat what we like, and shouldn't have any concern over how our food "feels" or is treated. I don't feel that any of these people are wrong, nor do I have a problem with any of their actions. But when we restrict the rights of those people, we impose our own belief system on them, and that isn't fair.

The truth is, there is always some segment of society who will feel something is abhorrent, especially when it comes to a topic as disarming and unnerving as sex, whether it's a foot fetish, BDSM (just wait until the 50 Shades of Grey movie comes out), doll, or anything else. We shouldn't look down upon or restrict the rights of these people, as long as they don't inhibit your daily ability to be happy. And that's all they're looking for, the right to be as happy and as comfortable as you in your own skin.
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