I'm not disagreeing with your point. Truly, I'm not. I'm merely saying that not every player is going to focus on that, every single shift -- as much as we'd like to -- and that sometimes, that puck's gonna wind up in the back of your net.

Again: I'm really not disagreeing with the concept of what you're saying -- who would? I'm just saying, in reality, it's just not going to happen for all players.
- AllInForFlyers

Which brings us back to this team, I would be happy as hell if the Flyers forwards did it exactly the way you described.....which would be somewhat more than they do it now. I think they can be below average at best in that aspect of their game.

I agree with MJL that it HAS to be your top players setting the example so they have the right to demand it of everyone else. ESPECIALLY if you wear a letter.

Ha! Player A seems...familiar...to me.

- AllInForFlyers

Well one has a bit of an undeserved rep as a one way sniper while the other is unfairly reviled as a worthless floater.

It's just that if Alex Overchkin's name was Cam Johnston, he'd be the Canadian media's darling.

Agreed. He's hardly the first superstar sniper that failed to back check effectively.

Sadly, I do feel it's a bit of bias, as well, from some segments of the media. That Russian factor crap exists.

Here's two guys stat lines:

Player A
GP: 612 G: 248 A:198 PTS: 446 GPG: 0.41 PPG: 0.73

Player B
GP: 555 G: 223 A:257 PTS: 480 GPG: 0.40 PPG :0.86

Which guy would you want?
- Jsaquella

Is Player A...Jeff Carter?

Is Player B...taking a guess...Alexander Semin, maybe?

They'd better -- they have to be insane to think they can make it out of the West with what they have. Nothing against Halak and Elliott, but they've had their chances and that team's only going to listen to Hitch for a little while longer
- AllInForFlyers

The other option is ride rookie Jake Allen, who is very promising, but still raw.

Is Player A...Jeff Carter?

Is Player B...taking a guess...Alexander Semin, maybe?
- AllInForFlyers

Yep.

Yep.
- Jsaquella

The reason I guessed that is because I ran Semin's numbers a few years back -- that guy takes more heat than any player with his numbers should. Semin backchecks.

As for Carter...I saw his numbers this weekend, prior to the L.A. game. He always played solid, positional defense. I never called him a one-way floater -- and it is an unfair criticism.

Which brings us back to this team, I would be happy as hell if the Flyers forwards did it exactly the way you described.....which would be somewhat more than they do it now. I think they can be below average at best in that aspect of their game.

I agree with MJL that it HAS to be your top players setting the example so they have the right to demand it of everyone else. ESPECIALLY if you wear a letter.
- MBFlyerfan

Agreed -- to be clear, we don't have a roster of Lemieuxs and Jagrs out there -- some of those bastards need to be backchecking a bit harder, knowwhatI'msayin'?

The reason I guessed that is because I ran Semin's numbers a few years back -- that guy takes more heat than any player with his numbers should. Semin backchecks.

As for Carter...I saw his numbers this weekend, prior to the L.A. game. He always played solid, positional defense. I never called him a one-way floater -- and it is an unfair criticism.
- AllInForFlyers

That's what I mean. Neither guy deserves the rep he has, but Carter gets slammed far less than Semin does.

And where both get ripped the most, but especially Semin, is playoff production. Well, Carter is a 0.55 PPG playoff guy. Semin is 0.66. Neither guy really disappears

Which brings us back to this team, I would be happy as hell if the Flyers forwards did it exactly the way you described.....which would be somewhat more than they do it now. I think they can be below average at best in that aspect of their game.

I agree with MJL that it HAS to be your top players setting the example so they have the right to demand it of everyone else. ESPECIALLY if you wear a letter.
- MBFlyerfan

That's the only way you get true accountability on a team. Coaches can't do it. Cutting ice time and scratching players only creates temporary positive results. And sometimes negative results.

That's what I mean. Neither guy deserves the rep he has, but Carter gets slammed far less than Semin does.

And where both get ripped the most, but especially Semin, is playoff production. Well, Carter is a 0.55 PPG playoff guy. Semin is 0.66. Neither guy really disappears
- Jsaquella

Semin's a 0.66? I didn't know that...that's not disappearing, at all -- getting a point two out of three games in the playoffs isn't bad at all, in my book

Semin's a 0.66? I didn't know that...that's not disappearing, at all -- getting a point two out of three games in the playoffs isn't bad at all, in my book
- AllInForFlyers

Yep. It's not a case of a guy like Kane or Crosby, who maintain their levels in playoff and regular season at close to or over a PPG, but it's far from disappearing.

Is Player A...Jeff Carter?

Is Player B...taking a guess...Alexander Semin, maybe?
- AllInForFlyers

player b any day

Semin's a 0.66? I didn't know that...that's not disappearing, at all -- getting a point two out of three games in the playoffs isn't bad at all, in my book
- AllInForFlyers

i still maintain that stats arent a tell all though. a lot of players have pat burrell syndrome when it comes to their stats

player b any day
- 2Real

See...I like them both, for different reasons.

Jeff Carter's an interesting player, to me. I think he's a guy who actually will be able to play in the league into his late 30s, if he decides that's what he wants to do. I think his toughness is underrated -- people talk a lot about the missed shot in the Finals, but they don't mention how he rushed back from two broken feet -- and while he does have flaws as a player, that doesn't mean he's not a good player.

He really is.

But for how I believe the game should be played, I'd find room for a guy like Semin and see what I could get out of him, in a team structure. Maybe the guy is poison -- I don't know. But as someone who does feel Russians get an unfair rap, I'd want to see for myself what he does or doesn't do.

i still maintain that stats arent a tell all though. a lot of players have pat burrell syndrome when it comes to their stats
- stayinthefnnet

Hey, I understand where you're coming from...but what do you think of Patrick Marleau, then?

That guy gets killed for not having enough heart, despite his numbers. Wouldn't you want to see what he could've done, riding shotgun with Crosby?

My point is that some players get tagged with labels, no matter what they do. It's not always fair, or accurate, just as stats aren't always reflective of value.

i still maintain that stats arent a tell all though. a lot of players have pat burrell syndrome when it comes to their stats
- stayinthefnnet

They're not. Nobody would say that they are. But you can use them to see trends and get a read on what is happening, and quantify what you saw.

Even the most ardent stats advocates don't view the numbers in a vacuum, they're looking for trends that give insight to future performance

Hey, I understand where you're coming from...but what do you think of Patrick Marleau, then?

That guy gets killed for not having enough heart, despite his numbers. Wouldn't you want to see what he could've done, riding shotgun with Crosby?

My point is that some players get tagged with labels, no matter what they do. It's not always fair, or accurate, just as stats aren't always reflective of value.
- AllInForFlyers

oh i definitely would. those guys dont necessarily come across as total failures to me, they just cant necessarily be depended on to be "the guy" and accumulate stats in meaningful situations. a guy like marleau, being the main guy, may get a goal late in a third period when his team is down three in an elimination game.but that guy, acting as a secondary piece, may find new life in a different setting.

some guys just have yet to show the ability to rise up and get it done when it matters most, be it luck, inability to adapt to the playoff style, or whatever term you use to quantify lack of "clutch". i dont take this as a means to brand them as worthless though.

carter was able to have some usefulness for the kings in that stretch run. i dont think its a coincidence that he was able to do that when he wasnt relied on to be "the guy".

They're not. Nobody would say that they are. But you can use them to see trends and get a read on what is happening, and quantify what you saw.

Even the most ardent stats advocates don't view the numbers in a vacuum, they're looking for trends that give insight to future performance
- Jsaquella

definitely. you can only do the best you can on an imperfect science using the tools you have. its hard to condemn any approach as utterly invalid.

See...I like them both, for different reasons.

Jeff Carter's an interesting player, to me. I think he's a guy who actually will be able to play in the league into his late 30s, if he decides that's what he wants to do. I think his toughness is underrated -- people talk a lot about the missed shot in the Finals, but they don't mention how he rushed back from two broken feet -- and while he does have flaws as a player, that doesn't mean he's not a good player.

He really is.

But for how I believe the game should be played, I'd find room for a guy like Semin and see what I could get out of him, in a team structure. Maybe the guy is poison -- I don't know. But as someone who does feel Russians get an unfair rap, I'd want to see for myself what he does or doesn't do.
- AllInForFlyers

ive always been a believer in semin's skills. by all accounts, hes been a solid soldier in carolina. his price tag may be a little high, but as of now his cap hit would be my only complaint with him. like you said, with that skill i would try and make room for him within a team structure.

i still maintain that stats arent a tell all though. a lot of players have pat burrell syndrome when it comes to their stats
- stayinthefnnet

Pat Burrell has a championship to his name and hit 33 homeruns in 2008. Not too shabby.

Tie Domi to publish his memoir for release in 2015

http://ca.sports.yahoo.co...emoir-192401189--nhl.html
- ob18

I wonder how many boxes of crayolas he went through while writing it.

Pat Burrell has a championship to his name and hit 33 homeruns in 2008. Not too shabby.
- wolfhounds

Pat Burrell was also in obvious decline by 2008, despite his HR totals.

No one stat tells the tale, sir.

Even the most ardent stats advocates don't view the numbers in a vacuum, they're looking for trends that give insight to future performance
- Jsaquella

Unfortunately, there are a vocal some who do exactly this and don't do the cause of advanced stats any favors.

My goodness...be safe out there guys it is nasty

Again, for the record: I do agree that the effort should always be there.
- AllInForFlyers

Its what made captains like Clarke and Poulin so great; maximum effort and hustle every shift, every game.