GROSSMANN FOR DICTATOR OF SWEDEN!

well if youve heard rumors about a supposed paycut that he would be willing to take, then i will admit that does change it a bit. if you can have it assured that youre going to ink him for a really good deal, then it may be worth looking into. but i cant see him signing like a 4 year, 18 million dollar deal.
- stayinthefnnet

The Pens could trade Letang for Vanek, then resign Vanek for more than Letang is making, and then trade Vanek once he stops caring.

The Pens could trade Letang for Vanek, then resign Vanek for more than Letang is making, and then trade Vanek once he stops caring.
- jmatchett383

they could also give me a 750k contract to patrol the fourth line. ive never met a board battle i wouldnt shy away from or a faceoff i couldnt lose.

The Pens could trade Letang for Vanek, then resign Vanek for more than Letang is making, and then trade Vanek once he stops caring.
- jmatchett383

or they could just trade letang for eberle, resign niskanen, and call it a day

they could also give me a 750k contract to patrol the fourth line. ive never met a board battle i wouldnt shy away from or a faceoff i couldnt lose.
- stayinthefnnet

Go on...

No, you are incorrect. I am stating exactly what those statistics mean. There's no interpretation. No way to read them differently.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/glossary.php

I'm using the most basic of stats, ones that simply measure shot attempts for and against. and when Grossmann is on the ice, the Flyers face 2.5 shot attempts against for every one they take. Not voodoo, no interpretation. Just your unwillingness to accept a very simple and black and white stat at face value because it fails to meet YOUR opinion.

The other measurement is CF%, which is simply a measure that matches Corsi for & Corsi against to get a simple ratio of shots for and against. In that regard, every single member of the 2013-14 Philadelphia Flyers who was on ice at the same time as Grossmann when a shot was attempted had a worse CF% than they did when they were on the ice with anybody else not named Nick Grossmann.

Again, there's nothing to interpret. It's a black and white number, based on data accumulated over 50+ NHL games. You see, when you do an experiment or analysis, you use a control and test group.

In this case, Grossmann is in the "control" group, because his presence is the constant. The "test" group is everyone else. The simple fact-again, not intrepretation-is that every player on the entire team has a better CF% when they are on the ice with out Nick Grossmann. That includes Mark Streit.

So again, there's zero interpretation. None, zilch, nada. It's two simple sets of stats that paint a really bad picture for Grossmann.

Have fun on the video collage.
- Jsaquella

I disagree completely. The cause of why the numbers are why they are is open to interpretation. Hockey is a team game, and cannot isolate Grossmann as the only variable. And that can be proven out by simply discussing the scenarios. The numbers don't and cannot eliminate the other players from the equation. Simply can't be done.
I have not at anytime disputed that the Flyers face 2.5 shots against for every shot they take when Grossmann is on the ice. I'm disputing that Grossmann is the sole reason for that. And how the stats are being used out of context and used improperly when looking at Grossmann and his play. And that can be proven out with video and the aptly named "eyeball" test.

Go on...
- MunsterMike

hmm. i wouldnt need a stick. come to think of it, i wouldnt need skates either. i would probably just find a quiet corner of the ice and sit down

they could also give me a 750k contract to patrol the fourth line. ive never met a board battle i wouldnt shy away from or a faceoff i couldnt lose.
- stayinthefnnet

Also, if you felt you had been slighted on the ice, you could call the referees over and drop some legal knowledge on them.

or they could just trade letang for eberle, resign niskanen, and call it a day
- stayinthefnnet

You could get more than Eberle. If you were to trade Letang, it would be smart to get multiple pieces back. Like you said, the Pens need depth more than top line talent.

Marek Malik-esque SO goal to win it?
- Tomahawk

Nah, more like Gerbes

hmm. i wouldnt need a stick. come to think of it, i wouldnt need skates either. i would probably just find a quiet corner of the ice and sit down
- stayinthefnnet

Sabermetrics do value TOI very highly.

hmm. i wouldnt need a stick. come to think of it, i wouldnt need skates either. i would probably just find a quiet corner of the ice and sit down
- stayinthefnnet

Ah, the Hal Gill method. Step onto the ice, have your teammates push you as far as you can. As soon as you come to a stop, slowly start skating back toward the bench, poking your cane at any pucks that come within your 30-foot wingspan.

I must say you two have tremendous stamina to continue this argument for this long. It's almost like MJL is making up for lost time.
- PhillySportsGuy

I'm home bored, it's raining and quite honestly, I dislike people that demand things for others in a discussion that they aren't willing to provide.

You want data from another poster to back up his comments? They you better be prepared to do the same.

You want to disagree with data posted by another person? Fine, but don't intentionally trash the other person's data and mislabel it as as open to interpretation, when it clearly isn't.

That's my issue. Disagree all you want. But don't trash actual facts presented by the other side as garbage when you either don't understand them, or more accurately, can't spin them to make your argument look better.

I disagree completely. The cause of why the numbers are why they are in open to interpretation. Hockey is a team game, and cannot isolate Grossmann as the only variable. And that can be proven out by simpy discussing the scenarios. The numbers don't and cannot eliminate the other players from the equation. Simply can't be done.
I have not at anytime disputed that the Flyers face 2.5 shots against for every shot they take when Grossmann is on the ice. I'm disputing that Grossmann is sole reason for that. And how the stats are being used out of context and used improperly when looking at Grossmann.
- MJL

im leery of relying too heavily on these stats in a vacuum because unless youre taking into account things such as starting position for the majority of his ice time. if grossman is being heavily relied on for defensive faceoffs, and really not getting many offensive zone starts, a stat like that doesnt appear as alarming.

hmm. i wouldnt need a stick. come to think of it, i wouldnt need skates either. i would probably just find a quiet corner of the ice and sit down
- stayinthefnnet

You'd probably be good for at least one highlight reel moment a game.

How tall are you? The Habs look like they need help.

You could get more than Eberle. If you were to trade Letang, it would be smart to get multiple pieces back. Like you said, the Pens need depth more than top line talent.
- PhillySportsGuy

true. but i dont really want a typical TML offer of a bunch of third rate parts that are supposed to amount to a cumulative value in return. getting a guy like eberle effectively allows there to be a trickle down effect on all of the lines, therefore somewhat helping the depth of the lower lines in the process. he is also locked up to a somewhat reasonable deal for the foreseeable future, which is a must for me.

and, not to sound like a hypocrite too badly for my response to the vanek idea, but eberle, crosby, and kunitz....

You'd probably be good for at least one highlight reel moment a game.

How tall are you? The Habs look like they need help.
- MunsterMike

depends what theyre looking for. im willing to either cut myself off at the ankles or staple phonebooks to my feet to meet the desired height of an interested team. willing to bleed for my team before i even don a sweater.

I'm home bored, it's raining and quite honestly, I dislike people that demand things for others in a discussion that they aren't willing to provide.

You want data from another poster to back up his comments? They you better be prepared to do the same.

You want to disagree with data posted by another person? Fine, but don't intentionally trash the other person's data and mislabel it as as open to interpretation, when it clearly isn't.

That's my issue. Disagree all you want. But don't trash actual facts presented by the other side as garbage when you either don't understand them, or more accurately, can't spin them to make your argument look better.
- Jsaquella

This completly misses what my argument is. My opinion is that if anyone thinks that these stats can accurately isolate one player in a team game with 4 other skaters on the ice, as the only variable, then those stats are misunderstood and being misused. The data is clearly open to interpretation when looking at what causes those results. Even the orignators and pundits of the stats admit that, and that the numbers need to be looked at with the proper context.
And to expand on asking for data on Grossmann's blocked shots, as explained before, that was simply to prove a simple point that the point made can't be proven as fact.

So to clarify my position. My argument is two fold. I don't need to supply any data because half my argument is based on the advanced stats that are offered on various websites, and how it is misinterpreted and misused. And that data can't be claimed as yours or mine, or anyone's. It's public knowledge.
And secondly, which is where more of the emphasis should be placed on assessing Grossmann as a player, because of the extreme ambiguity and flaws found in advanced statistics, is watching the player play. And looking at video that is available. And if that's done, in my opinion, Grossmann's play in the defensive zone is solid. His positioning and reading of plays is solid. And I'm willing to debate and discuss any individual play and sequence of Grossmann's play on the ice.

true. but i dont really want a typical TML offer of a bunch of third rate parts that are supposed to amount to a cumulative value in return. getting a guy like eberle effectively allows there to be a trickle down effect on all of the lines, therefore somewhat helping the depth of the lower lines in the process. he is also locked up to a somewhat reasonable deal for the foreseeable future, which is a must for me.

and, not to sound like a hypocrite too badly for my response to the vanek idea, but eberle, crosby, and kunitz....
- stayinthefnnet

A line like that is tremendous, but would make me nervous against a grinding team like Boston. I think Boston and Pitt are the two best teams in the conference by a wide margin. I feel you guys need more grind it out types.

I'm home bored, it's raining and quite honestly, I dislike people that demand things for others in a discussion that they aren't willing to provide.

You want data from another poster to back up his comments? They you better be prepared to do the same.

You want to disagree with data posted by another person? Fine, but don't intentionally trash the other person's data and mislabel it as as open to interpretation, when it clearly isn't.

That's my issue. Disagree all you want. But don't trash actual facts presented by the other side as garbage when you either don't understand them, or more accurately, can't spin them to make your argument look better.
- Jsaquella

My head would be spinning by now if I had to argue about one player for 6 hours.

Ah, the Hal Gill method. Step onto the ice, have your teammates push you as far as you can. As soon as you come to a stop, slowly start skating back toward the bench, poking your cane at any pucks that come within your 30-foot wingspan.
- jmatchett383

Dude I've played against in pickup hockey is like that, 6 foot 8 with a stick probably as long. He's pretty mobile to boot. Such a pain to play against.

Doesn't hurt he played semi-pro in Quebec. Also doesn't hurt that I've only played for 4 years and suck.

I disagree completely. The cause of why the numbers are why they are is open to interpretation. Hockey is a team game, and cannot isolate Grossmann as the only variable. And that can be proven out by simply discussing the scenarios. The numbers don't and cannot eliminate the other players from the equation. Simply can't be done.
I have not at anytime disputed that the Flyers face 2.5 shots against for every shot they take when Grossmann is on the ice. I'm disputing that Grossmann is the sole reason for that. And how the stats are being used out of context and used improperly when looking at Grossmann and his play. And that can be proven out with video and the aptly named "eyeball" test.
- MJL

Hmm, well, I just managed to isolate Grossmann using the CF% of his teammates with and without him on the ice over a 50 game spread.

That's not an interpretation. It's a literal fact that when Grossmann is on the ice every player on the entire team, except for Hal Gill(who hasn't been on the ice with Grossmann for a shot attempt for or against) has a worse rating than when he's not on the ice with Grossmann.

Again. there's no way to spin that, or change it. It's a simple fact.

It's not blaming Grossmann alone, but he is the one constant in the models run. No other player on the roster has that same overall negative effect across the board. Not even Gill.

Is that all on Grossmann? Nope. Nobody is saying it is. But it is a troublesome trend, and if you are unable to recognize that in and of itself, you're arguing for the sake of arguing.

The Flyers will beat the Sharks if...

A line like that is tremendous, but would make me nervous against a grinding team like Boston. I think Boston and Pitt are the two best teams in the conference by a wide margin. I feel you guys need more grind it out types.
- PhillySportsGuy

true. but there really arent many of those guys out there that are any good. i would love ott, but giving a first for him as a rental. no thanks. id gladly look at signing him in the offseason. im all ears for any potential guys that could fill that mold, and realistically be had.

a letang for eberle swap i still ultimately feel improves the team. no, maybe not in that grinding area, but its still an overall net gain, in both the short and long term in my mind.

If Stamkos can't go for Team Canada
Who plays St Louis or Giroux

Pretty sure St Louis