That is why stats like WOWY exist. That simply measures what a player does when on the ice with a particular player and when on the ice without a particular player.

That's how I can look at what the team's Corsi & Fenwick scores are with Grossmann on the ice and when he's not on the ice and see that they're worse with him.

Other factors come into play, too, like score differential and situation play.
- Jsaquella

The problem is that the stats can't isolate Grossmann as the only variable there. That is the fatal flaw. The other factors such as some that you mention, are numerous. That's why a possession number can't be looked with or without a player, and come to a definitive conclusion on who or what the issue is. That can only be done by watching the game. Advanced stats don't go the distance and fall way short.

pretty sure we have enough 6/7 defenseman
- -davies-

I'm with you on this one

The problem is that the stats can't isolate Grossmann as the only variable there. That is the fatal flaw. The other factors such as some that you mention, are numerous. That's why a possession number can't be looked with or without a player, and come to a definitive conclusion on who or what the issue is. That can only be done by watching the game. Advanced stats don't go the distance and fall way short.
- MJL

Thanks once again, for providing nothing more than your opinion.

Every one that plays with him has worse numbers than when they play without him, but we can't isolate Grossmann.

or just put mesz back with grossmann and don't give up any assets

timo/schenn
streit/coburn
gross/mesz
- -davies-

Mez' defensive game left town with Richards and Carter and never came back. His play without the puck is pretty damn awful, and his transition game has taken 12 steps back.

Also, again, both are LH.

Mez' defensive game left town with Richards and Carter and never came back. His play without the puck is pretty damn awful, and his transition game has taken 12 steps back.

Also, again, both are LH I believe.
- jmatchett383

i am also fine with gus being in that spot. i just don't like the pairs we have and wish they would try something different

but not mesz and streit together like i saw in the kings game

Mez' defensive game left town with Richards and Carter and never came back. His play without the puck is pretty damn awful, and his transition game has taken 12 steps back.

Also, again, both are LH.
- jmatchett383

shuffling up the pairings may help to a point, but a different infusion of players is probably needed, as opposed to to simply mixing around whats already there.

Mez' defensive game left town with Richards and Carter and never came back. His play without the puck is pretty damn awful, and his transition game has taken 12 steps back.

Also, again, both are LH.
- jmatchett383

shuffling up the pairings may help to a point, but a different infusion of players is probably needed, as opposed to to simply mixing around whats already there.

Ok guys, just got back from watching all of the goals scored against the Flyers. From what I have seen.. there are two GLARING problems.

1- Grossmann is human. He has good games and bad games (unfortunately more of the latter this season). In order for him to improve he would need to stop being human.

2- We traded defensive specialist Maxime "the Dream" Talbot. It is no coincidence that Max Talbot held Nick Grossmann responsible for his play on the ice.

Also, Braydon Coburn needs to be moved to the PP. Put him in front of the net and pucks seem to just bounce off of him.

I just read the Eklund rumor that the Flyers are going for Hainsey and that they don't want to deal Gus.

How about this and I know this is crazy: They could simply....play Erik Gustaffson. Regularly.

I know, it's crazy. Just a thought.

Ok guys, just got back from watching all of the goals scored against the Flyers. From what I have seen.. there are two GLARING problems.

1- Grossmann is human. He has good games and bad game (unfortunately more of the latter this season. In order for him to improve he would need to stop being human.

2- We traded defensive specialist Maxime "the Dream" Talbot. It is no coincidence that Max Talbot held Nick Grossmann responsible for his play on the ice.

Also, Braydon Coburn needs to be moved to the PP. Put him in front of the net and pucks seem to just bounce off of him.
- jak521

Also, Braydon Coburn needs to be moved to the PP. Put him in front of the net and pucks seem to just bounce off of him.
- jak521

I was joking with a friend and made this same point, only I used Luke Schenn instead of Cobie.

I just read the Eklund rumor that the Flyers are going for Hainsey and that they don't want to deal Gus.

How about this and I know this is crazy: They could simply....play Erik Gustaffson. Regularly.

I know, it's crazy. Just a thought.
- johndewar

Can't they do both?

Can't they do both?
- Jsaquella

Get Hainsey and play Gus?

Not if the Canes want Gus for Hainsey, they can't.

If they get Hainsey for Mez or something like that, why bother? You can have Hainsey for nothing this summer.

That's once again, for providing nothing more than your opinion.

Every one that plays with him has worse numbers than when they play without him, but we can't isolate Grossmann.
- Jsaquella

Everyone of your posts regarding what the advanced stats mean, and the interpretation of them is your opinion. When you look at why the numbers are why they are, is when you really get down to it. And you can spin those numbers to mean anything you want them to mean, it's all just opinion. When other players play with Grossmann, they aren't just playing with Grossmann. They're also playing with Mark Streit on most occasions as they play together a lot. They're also playing with any number of combinations of forwards. And when Mark Striet isn't playing with Grossmann and his possession numbers get better, you have to look at why they do. That's where the analysis and context comes in. And that's where the opinion is. I disagree with the analysis you've offered on Grossmann. And I've offered to look at game highlights and use the so called "eyeball" test. And when I get some time later tonight, I'm going to put together a post complete with links of numerous plays where a goal is scored with Grossmann on the ice, that illustrates the situations that Grossmann has been faced with this Season.

Would you trade for Vanek
He'd (frank)ing kill on Girouxs line

Get Hainsey and play Gus?

Not if the Canes want Gus for Hainsey, they can't.

If they get Hainsey for Mez or something like that, why bother? You can have Hainsey for nothing this summer.
- johndewar

And your Mez for free

Would you trade for Vanek
He'd (frank)ing kill on Girouxs line
- Winning

The opposite of "Absolutely, GOD YES Please!"

Would you trade for Vanek
He'd (frank)ing kill on Girouxs line
- Winning

The Islanders would want a prospect and a 1st for him.

Would you trade for Vanek
He'd (frank)ing kill on Girouxs line
- Winning

You can say that about a lot of guys.

Especially those players who have a contract up for renewal.

The Islanders would want a prospect and a 1st for him.
- PhillySportsGuy

He refused a huge deal to resign from them.
Hes a rental and if he agrees to resign. I would trade for him.

Would you trade for Vanek
He'd (frank)ing kill on Girouxs line
- Winning

He refused a huge deal to resign from them.
Hes a rental and if he agrees to resign. I would trade for him.
- Winning

Isn't it pretty much a certainty that he's going to Minnesota this summer?

The opposite of "Absolutely, GOD YES Please!"
- jmatchett383

that be sweet to see happen.

He wants to play for a contender, and reports say he already knows he will be taking a pay cut.

Would you trade for Vanek
He'd (frank)ing kill on Girouxs line
- Winning

No way. This team should not be trading first round picks for rentals.