damn Canucks get Diaz for Wiese? Wiese is like Rosehill and a late pick.

It's sad. I don't anyone here considers Grossmann to be a stellar defenseman. The issue here is that everyone here strives to find a whipping boy. No one can objectively sit back and see that the blue-line as a whole has been operating poorly, in addition to the poor defensive play of the forwards. But when everyone wants to dump on Grossmann, it makes some of the more "even-keeled" fans defend Grossmann, making us look like we're his biggest fans.

I can call a spade a spade. Grossmann is a decent #3/#4 who steps up when physical hockey is embraced (ie: playoff time). On the flip side, his speed can and will burn him, just as it does with many of our flat-footed defenseman. I don't think anyone here loves him; I think we're just annoyed of how little respect the guy gets.

damn Canucks get Diaz for Wiese? Wiese is like Rosehill and a late pick.
- JAKEw1234

Yeah. Strange deal by the Habs

You would, but why has Gustafsson played so sparingly, despite the overall positive uptick in the Flyers possession numbers when he is dressed? Why dress Rosehill? Why force Lecavalier on the third line and keep Downie away from Couturier and Read when they are so effective as a line?

Some of it boils down to the coach's bias and own opinions. And honestly, outside of the revolving door on the third pair, Berube's really kind of left the defensemen alone. Perhaps he is more comfortable allowing Paddock or Lappy to handle it.
- Jsaquella

I'm sorry, but I'm just not a fan of advanced stats. It seems like stats in a vacuum. To me, each individual play has to be judged on its own merit. That goes for all stats as well. That's very simple and now I see it, and just wanted to put it out there. So I will not offer statistical data, and will instead use my personal observations and feelings in as unbiased a manner as I can when evaluating a player.

It's sad. I don't anyone here considers Grossmann to be a stellar defenseman. The issue here is that everyone here strives to find a whipping boy. No one can objectively sit back and see that the blue-line as a whole has been operating poorly, in addition to the poor defensive play of the forwards. But when everyone wants to dump on Grossmann, it makes some of the more "even-keeled" fans defend Grossmann, making us look like we're his biggest fans.

I can call a spade a spade. Grossmann is a decent #3/#4 who steps up when physical hockey is embraced (ie: playoff time). On the flip side, his speed can and will burn him, just as it does with many of our flat-footed defenseman. I don't think anyone here loves him; I think we're just annoyed of how little respect the guy gets.
- steelydan

Stop quashing arguements.

Stop quashing arguements.
- youarewrong

You know that logic, level-headedness, and the inability to beat dead horses are not looked upon kindly in these parts.

You would, but why has Gustafsson played so sparingly, despite the overall positive uptick in the Flyers possession numbers when he is dressed? Why dress Rosehill? Why force Lecavalier on the third line and keep Downie away from Couturier and Read when they are so effective as a line?

Some of it boils down to the coach's bias and own opinions. And honestly, outside of the revolving door on the third pair, Berube's really kind of left the defensemen alone. Perhaps he is more comfortable allowing Paddock or Lappy to handle it.
- Jsaquella

I agree with you on the others, but i think this team is better with grossman in the lineup. That doesnt mean that he shouldnt be benched if his play suffers.

damn Canucks get Diaz for Wiese? Wiese is like Rosehill and a late pick.
- JAKEw1234

Right-handed, younger, faster, version of Mark Streit... yeah, Flyers don't need any of those.

I'm sorry, but I'm just not a fan of advanced stats. It seems like stats in a vacuum. To me, each individual play has to be judged on its own merit. That goes for all stats as well. That's very simple and now I see it, and just wanted to put it out there. So I will not offer statistical data, and will instead use my personal observations and feelings in as unbiased a manner as I can when evaluating a player.
- jmatchett383

Stats can suck my arse.

Right-handed, younger, faster version of Mark Streit... yeah, Flyers don't need any of those.
- Tomahawk

I'm surprised there wasn't something they could have offered better than Weise. That really sucks. I mean, come on, Dale Weise!?

I'm sorry, but I'm just not a fan of advanced stats. It seems like stats in a vacuum. To me, each individual play has to be judged on its own merit. That goes for all stats as well. That's very simple and now I see it, and just wanted to put it out there. So I will not offer statistical data, and will instead use my personal observations and feelings in as unbiased a manner as I can when evaluating a player.
- jmatchett383

That's fine.

So a guy that scores 50 goals might not be as good as a guy who scores 20, because the plays have to be taken in a vacuum?

I don't rely solely on any stats, but they can be a helpful tool.

You know that logic, level-headedness, and the inability to beat dead horses are not looked upon kindly in these parts.
- jmatchett383

Yea, we could always go back to the 8 pages of jabber we had by this time prior to 2/1/14.

I'm surprised there wasn't something they could have offered better than Weise. That really sucks. I mean, come on, Dale Weise!?
- jmatchett383

Maybe it's the get-out-of-conference discount at work, who knows.

That's fine.

So a guy that scores 50 goals might not be as good as a guy who scores 20, because the plays have to be taken in a vacuum?

I don't rely solely on any stats, but they can be a helpful tool.
- Jsaquella

If all 50 are off of crazy caroms or empty netters, or the guy with 20 is a defenseman, or plays with less talented players and lower TOI, etc. then yes, they have to be looked at individually.

I agree with you on the others, but i think this team is better with grossman in the lineup. That doesnt mean that he shouldnt be benched if his play suffers.
- PhillaBully

That's really my main issue with Grossmann. I don't see such a huge gap between him and Meszaros, Gustafsson & Schenn to justify them getting benched after a bad game and Grossmann not.

It's not an argument for long term benchings, it's simply saying that Grossmann isn't an elite level player that is so much better than other that they can't survive his absence

Maybe it's the get-out-of-conference discount at work, who knows.
- Tomahawk

Maybe, or maybe Diaz wasn't really put out there much and the Canucks were the only team offering.

Right-handed, younger, faster, version of Mark Streit... yeah, Flyers don't need any of those.
- Tomahawk

habs fans here weren't very high on diaz

That's really my main issue with Grossmann. I don't see such a huge gap between him and Meszaros, Gustafsson & Schenn to justify them getting benched after a bad game and Grossmann not.

It's not an argument for long term benchings, it's simply saying that Grossmann isn't an elite level player that is so much better than other that they can't survive his absence
- Jsaquella

I think Gustafsson's play should earn him a spot. Meszaros, not so much. He's faster than Grossmann but my God...he is flat-out terrible defensively. I mean, don't get me wrong, Grossmann is far from without fault, but he looks like Chris Pronger compared to Mez.

If all 50 are off of crazy caroms or empty netters, or the guy with 20 is a defenseman, or plays with less talented players and lower TOI, etc. then yes, they have to be looked at individually.
- jmatchett383

True, but when a guy manages to score a lot of goals and sustains it over a significant period of time, it becomes a trend and that is where stats can be very useful.

In the very specific case we've discussed today, a team facing a shot attempt deficit of 2.5 to 1 when a specific player is on the ice over the course of 50+ games is a troublesome trend. The fact that when the rest of the team's possession metrics are worse with one specific player-across the board-then something is amiss.

These are numbers over a game or two, they have been built up over 50+ games.

Would you guys do Hainsey and Pitkanen for Gustefsson. Both UFA, but gets your foot in the door to negotiate with Pitkanen wayyyy before UFA.

habs fans here weren't very high on diaz
- -davies-

Regardless of team rooting interest, fanbases tend to think the grass is greener on the other side with other teams' defensemen-- until they actually acquire one of those players and see that they most have at least one significant weakness in their game (which is why they are not ideal top-pairing guys). The real "true" 1s and 2s are very, very, very hard to acquire.

I think Gustafsson's play should earn him a spot. Meszaros, not so much. He's faster than Grossmann but my God...he is flat-out terrible defensively. I mean, don't get me wrong, Grossmann is far from without fault, but he looks like Chris Pronger compared to Mez.
- jmatchett383

Meszaros has definitely been bad in his own end, but he's also provided some offense from the back end. It's a trade off, but I don't agree that Grossmann has looked like Pronger by comparision.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvsSgVoG0dU

Would you guys do Hainsey and Pitkanen for Gustefsson. Both UFA, but gets your foot in the door to negotiate with Pitkanen wayyyy before UFA.
- youarewrong

No. There's no guarantee that you could re-sign either and Pitkanen's career is in doubt after his horrific heel injury last season.

Yeah. Strange deal by the Habs
- Jsaquella

How does Homer not capitalize there? Would love to add Diaz