True and real accountability comes from players and teammates. Not Coaches.
- MJL

i believe thats part of the equation, yes. it is an organizational thing. and part of that has to do with the coaching to some level.

I rip the data because it is flawed and lacks context. And I can discuss that in depth and show why it is. And I have looked at the data involving Grossmann. I've also looked at all the video that is available. I've seen it posted multiple times that Grossmann fails the eye test. I've yet to see anything that backs up that opinion.
I'll be happy to continue to discuss any factor if Grossmann's game in depth. But not interested in continuing along the course that the conversation has taken because a dissenting opinion has been given.
- MJL

Again, nothing at all besides opinion with no facts or data. The course the conversation has taken is due to your inability to provide anything other than your opinion, while all the while expressing your willingness to discuss facts.

It's actually laughable now. But, I'm done, because it's pointless. When you finally decide to provide a factual argument or post some sort of evidence to support your opinion that doesn't involve Bill agreeing with you or your mythical reliance on "Well the coach...", maybe we can continue.

I know it's a small (very small) sample size, but I'm hoping he was just in a bad funk and is coming out of it. Only time will tell, but I hope he settles down and becomes Mr. 16 minutes of boring, unspectacular hockey.

To me, he is what he is. A slow, physical, next-to-nothing offensive defenseman who, when not paired with an adequate puck mover and/or forwards who cheat, ends up making questionable to terrible decisions with the puck. And that's just how he is, and that's okay as long as he plays shutdown defense and uses his size/strength. It's when he doesn't make good reads defensively that he really gets hurt. And for the past month+, prior to the Detroit game, that was the case. I hope and think he's coming out of that, and will be a serviceable 4/5/6 defenseman for the rest of the year.
- jmatchett383

It's a bit different if you're dealing with a Giroux or Malkin. Obviously you're not going to bench them for a game, but certainly for a period here and there if they don;t play well or hard.

And I'm not even advocating a long term benching of Grossmann. Maybe a game or two when he had an obviously bad game, like they have done with Schenn, Gustafsson and Meszaros. It's not as if Grossmann is so much better than those players.
- Jsaquella

I just don't think benching Grossmann will have a positive effect. Its not like he's given a half-ass effort. I feel like he needs to play through it in order to break out of his slump. I believe he's broken out of the slump and this is all a moot point.

Fine. But I want a written letter forgiving me for the Weber offer sheet as well.
- PhillySportsGuy

shouldnt that be heading nashvilles way, you robber barons you

Why do you think it is that when Streit is on the ice with Mason 5 on 5, the Flyers have a positive GF20 differential of 0.125, but when Grossmann and Mason are on the ice 5 on 5 the Flyers concede 0.282 more goals than they score for ever 20 minutes of ice time?
- Feanor

You would have to know what the situations are when Grossmann and Striet aren't on the ice together, and who the other players are that are on the ice.

Because Grossmann banged Mason's wife???
- jmatchett383

Well now you're just sounding like a beat writer

it is, but i think we are in agreement that yeah you cant cut off your nose to spite your face and bench your star for a whole game. and they know that. but ill be damned if its the first period of say game 50 and you absolutely laugh in the face of the idea of backchecking if youre giroux, or just straight hook someone to the ground like a petulant child because someone took the puck from you if youre malkin, that you shouldnt miss at least 3 or 4 shifts. just something.

but i dont understand what you guys are doing with your defensemen. if you think you guys dont have the pressure to make an outside move yet because you want to see what you have in someone like gus, then you need to play him.
- stayinthefnnet

they don't know what to do either. it's like keeping sour milk, going to the fridge, consider drinking it, opening it up, smelling it, and putting it back. 25 times.

Well if you play Gus, it's either Mez or Grossmann.
- PhillySportsGuy

Or Gill. The way that Grossmann played in January, it's hard to convince me that Gill would have been a massive step down. Sure, he's slower, older and not as physical as Grossmann. But he's also smarter positionally and capable within his limitations.

shouldnt that be heading nashvilles way, you robber barons you
- stayinthefnnet

No, it should be a thank you note for allowing them to lock up their premier defenseman at what's going to be a very good rate for the rest of his (un)natural life.

they don't know what to do either. it's like keeping sour milk, going to the fridge, consider drinking it, opening it up, smelling it, and putting it back. 25 times.
- hammarby31

shouldnt that be heading nashvilles way, you robber barons you
- stayinthefnnet

Fine. But I want a free, private tour of Jack Whites studio in Nashville

Or Gill. The way that Grossmann played in January, it's hard to convince me that Gill would have been a massive step down. Sure, he's slower, older and not as physical as Grossmann. But he's also smarter positionally and capable within his limitations.
- Jsaquella

Naaaahhhh. I would rather have Grossmann.

Or Gill. The way that Grossmann played in January, it's hard to convince me that Gill would have been a massive step down. Sure, he's slower, older and not as physical as Grossmann. But he's also smarter positionally and capable within his limitations.
- Jsaquella

Hal Gill's career highlight reel:

Fine. But I want a free, private tour of Jack Whites studio in Nashville
- PhillySportsGuy

done. but if he touches you while youre in there dont come crying to me

Again, nothing at all besides opinion with no facts or data. The course the conversation has taken is due to your inability to provide anything other than your opinion, while all the while expressing your willingness to discuss facts.

It's actually laughable now. But, I'm done, because it's pointless. When you finally decide to provide a factual argument or post some sort of evidence to support your opinion that doesn't involve Bill agreeing with you or your mythical reliance on "Well the coach...", maybe we can continue.
- Jsaquella

I can offer the same data you are, and place my own spin on it, to make it say what I want it to say. It all involves context. That's the fallacy of advanced stats. Any advanced stat can used to serve an agenda. Any and all data has to interpreted. It's not black and white. You're accusing me of only offering opinion when that's all that you have done. The advanced stats that you offer don't definitively state what your opinion says they do. It's that simple. Same as the eye test. I've seen posts made blaming Grossmann for a breakdown time and time again, that is innacurate.

it is, but i think we are in agreement that yeah you cant cut off your nose to spite your face and bench your star for a whole game. and they know that. but ill be damned if its the first period of say game 50 and you absolutely laugh in the face of the idea of backchecking if youre giroux, or just straight hook someone to the ground like a petulant child because someone took the puck from you if youre malkin, that you shouldnt miss at least 3 or 4 shifts. just something.

but i dont understand what you guys are doing with your defensemen. if you think you guys dont have the pressure to make an outside move yet because you want to see what you have in someone like gus, then you need to play him.
- stayinthefnnet

Absolutely. The other night against the Ducks, I was livid at Giroux for that half assed back check on the 4th Anaheim goal.

I totally agree in terms of the defensemen and usage. I also fully agree that at least part of the issues that plague Grossmann-and Schenn, Meszaros & Gustafsson, for that matter-is the usage.

But while the coach has been very willing to juggle lines, he hasn't really done so on defense.

Hal Gill's career highlight reel:


- jmatchett383

yeah, or hoisting that shiny silver thing

Hal Gill's career highlight reel:
- jmatchett383

That's one oddly shaped pilon

yeah, or hoisting that shiny silver thing
- stayinthefnnet

You can set chalices of precious metals upon sticks.

I can offer the same data you are. It all involves context. Any advanced stat can used to serve an agenda. Any and all data has to interpreted. It's not black and white. You're accusing me of only offering opinion when that's all that you have done. The advanced stats that you offer don't definitively state what your opinion says they do. It's that simple. Same as the eye test. I've seen posts made blaming Grossmann for a breakdown time and time again, that is innacurate.
- MJL

Who's to blame for Grossmann's breakdown then? Obama?

You can set chalices of precious metals upon sticks.
- jmatchett383

that you can. although it certainly is tricky acquiring that chalice in the first place to have the right to set it anywhere

That's one oddly shaped pilon
- Tomahawk

Pilons aren't sturdy and strong like Hal Gill, nor are they as immobile.

that you can. although it certainly is tricky acquiring that chalice in the first place to have the right to set it anywhere
- stayinthefnnet

Not if you have a team of ninjas. Just make sure the ninjas aren't Canadian, because they'll attempt to sell it to the TML after acquiring it.

Who's to blame for Grossmann's breakdown then? Obama?
- 2Real

yes. hes been waiting for his prescriptions for weeks now, but he cant seem to navigate his way through the website.