In day games when the weather outside is above 36 degrees and the Flyers are coming off a win, Grossmann's numbers in the first period decline in accordance with the position of the sun relative to high noon at a 3:1 ratio against left handed centers.
- jmatchett383

This doesn't bode well for tonight's game

I disagree that it's a strawman argument. In fact the argument that I offer is often talked about on many of the advanced stats web sites in that the stats have be used in the correct context. In terms of Grossmann, they are being badly misused to serve an agenda. And I posted why on the other thread, and Bill Meltzer agreed with me. And he's going to write a blog in the near future that will be about Grossmann, which I think will echo a lot of the thoughts that I offered on Grossmann.
I asked for data on what was being said about Grossmann and his blocked shots because I know it doesn't exist, and what was being said about it, is simply being invented and is not the reality of the situation.
Like I said previously, I'm willing to look at the replay's of any goal this Season that Grossmann has been on the ice for, or any other video is available, and see where the breakdowns are. And look at ths situations that Grossmann has been in this Season. That's what I'm willing to do to back up my opinion, rather then offer some very suspect advanced statistics that lack context.

And really, moving the discussion away from Grossmann and the player, towards other issues, is the only strawman arguement being offered.
- MJL

I'm not moving the conversation away from Grossmann. I'm using the numbers that other players put up with and without Grossmann as a basis of comparison, sort of a test and control group in analyzing the way the team in general plays when Grossmann is on the ice vs when he is not.

Again, all you offer is opinion without backing it up with data. You tell us to watch the video. Since your argument is based on it, you show the video and provide the data...otherwise, it's strictly your opinion.

Also, stop hiding under Bill's pants leg. If your argument is so convincing and effective, it doesn't need Bill's endorsement. Unfortunately it's not. It's your opinion vs actual data and rather than look at the data, you rip the data because it fails to support your opinion.

Which is the definition of a strawman argument.

Grossmann sometimes makes bad reads and gets caught out of position defensively. Meszaros just stands still and hopes the puck comes to him.
- jmatchett383

He puts magnets on his stick and in the puck.

I'm not moving the conversation away from Grossmann. I'm using the numbers that other players put up with and without Grossmann as a basis of comparison, sort of a test and control group in analyzing the way the team in general plays when Grossmann is on the ice vs when he is not.

Again, all you offer is opinion without backing it up with data. You tell us to watch the video. Since your argument is based on it, you show the video and provide the data...otherwise, it's strictly your opinion.

Also, stop hiding under Bill's pants leg. If your argument is so convincing and effective, it doesn't need Bill's endorsement. Unfortunately it's not. It's your opinion vs actual data and rather than look at the data, you rip the data because it fails to support your opinion.

Which is the definition of a strawman argument.
- Jsaquella

Ummmm..why not?

This doesn't bode well for tonight's game
- PhillySportsGuy

Ah, but that advanced situational tell-all stat is only valid for day games.

Grossmann is an AHL defender at best who makes everyone around him bad and should be moved at the earliest possible moment.

Grossmann sometimes makes bad reads and gets caught out of position defensively. Meszaros just stands still and hopes the puck comes to him.
- jmatchett383

you guys should nut up and take a stab at what josi would cost from nashville. i think he would be one of the better young two way guys that isnt in the whole yandle/buff recycle pile

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayer.php?pid=1481&withagainst=true&season=2013-14&sit=5v5

Gustafsson doesn't have better across the board numbers for everyone, but there's not an across the board decline as with Grossmann.

http://stats.hockeyanalys...ue&season=2013-14&sit=5v5

Simply compare the CF% total in the "When One Ice Together" column vs the CF% in the "Teammate When Apart" column.
- Jsaquella

An interesting stat: Luke Scheen with gusty: GA20 0.547 without gusty 1.077

Grossmann is an AHL defender at best who makes everyone around him bad and should be moved at the earliest possible moment.
- jmatchett383

link to your source please

clearly.
- stayinthefnnet

This team is going to be so lost next year if Timonen retires and they don't add a top 4 damn through trade or FA.

So gustafsonn for hainsey. Wasn't he around in August? Go flyers! Paying retail price since 1967

An interesting stat: Luke Scheen with gusty: GA20 0.547 without gusty 1.077



- 2Real

Wow Vinny with Gusty GA20: 0.208 without gusty 1.093

He puts magnets on his stick and in the puck.
- PhillySportsGuy

He's so beastly that he curves space time, causing the pucks to fall into him via gravitation.

you guys should nut up and take a stab at what josi would cost from nashville. i think he would be one of the better young two way guys that isnt in the whole yandle/buff recycle pile
- stayinthefnnet

I'm willing to nut up for these guys. Even if our young defenseman develop, they aren't really top pairing material. Some of them have some upside, but not one of them really has the upside of a top pairing guy.

So gustafsonn for hainsey. Wasn't he around in August? Go flyers! Paying retail price since 1967
- Just5

Carolina didn't sign him till 9/12/13. The story was that teams were mad at him for comments made during the lockout.

http://sports.yahoo.com/b...lackballed-132352672.html

I disagree that it's a strawman argument. In fact the argument that I offer is often talked about on many of the advanced stats web sites in that the stats have be used in the correct context. In terms of Grossmann, they are being badly misused to serve an agenda. And I posted why on the other thread, and Bill Meltzer agreed with me. And he's going to write a blog in the near future that will be about Grossmann, which I think will echo a lot of the thoughts that I offered on Grossmann.
I asked for data on what was being said about Grossmann and his blocked shots because I know it doesn't exist, and what was being said about it, is simply being invented and is not the reality of the situation.
Like I said previously, I'm willing to look at the replay's of any goal this Season that Grossmann has been on the ice for, or any other video is available, and see where the breakdowns are. And look at ths situations that Grossmann has been in this Season. That's what I'm willing to do to back up my opinion, rather then offer some very suspect advanced statistics that lack context.

And really, moving the discussion away from Grossmann and the player, towards other issues, is the only strawman arguement being offered.
- MJL

Your opinions are usually just appeals to authority.

Because Bill says it, it must be true.
Because some washed up veteran who played a different style of game in a different era says it, it must be true.
Because some national writer who's watched two Flyers games said it, it must be true.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but using an appeal to authority to justify it is not helping your case (in my opinion). It just makes you look foolish.

Welcome back.

This team is going to be so lost next year if Timonen retires and they don't add a top 4 damn through trade or FA.
- PhillySportsGuy

i truly do think that. but then again, i think that should the right move be made, it can develop to one of the better ones in the east. i typically dont think a player or two can really make that big of a transitional difference on an entire team, but im pretty convinced for this team it will.

Ummmm..why not?
- PhillySportsGuy

Just to give you more opportunity to mischaracterize my comments into I'd prefer Meszaros playing over Grossmann, when it's actually I'd just like to see subpar and stupid play by similar players held accountable.

Other than that, no real reason to discuss him

Wow Vinny with Gusty GA20: 0.208 without gusty 1.093
- 2Real

Sample size too small

link to your source please
- 2Real

http://www.hockeybuzz.com

Sample size too small
- PhillySportsGuy

Well.... Steve Mason GA20 with Gusty: 0.472 GA20 without: 0.884
Emery GA20 with Gusty 0.501 GA20 without 0.802

I'm willing to nut up for these guys. Even if our young defenseman develop, they aren't really top pairing material. Some of them have some upside, but not one of them really has the upside of a top pairing guy.
- PhillySportsGuy

i know they basically breed defensemen down there, but i really think josi is pretty damn good, and only going to become even better. i think he could be a top pairing dman on his own team, and drastically make the flyers better as early as next year while being young enough to grow with the core and become a part of the foundation. since im done female doging momentarily about school, shall i play poile? initial offer?

Just to give you more opportunity to mischaracterize my comments into I'd prefer Meszaros playing over Grossmann, when it's actually I'd just like to see subpar and stupid play by similar players held accountable.

Other than that, no real reason to discuss him
- Jsaquella

Mez gets benched because he's a 6/7 defenseman. Schenn got benched because the coach didn't like his effort. Why bench Grossmann if he is one of the best 6 defenseman? It's not like he has a bad attitude.

your argument is that Grossmann isn't a very good defenseman. My argument is that he's having a bad year on a team without very many good defenseman.

I'm not moving the conversation away from Grossmann. I'm using the numbers that other players put up with and without Grossmann as a basis of comparison, sort of a test and control group in analyzing the way the team in general plays when Grossmann is on the ice vs when he is not.

Again, all you offer is opinion without backing it up with data. You tell us to watch the video. Since your argument is based on it, you show the video and provide the data...otherwise, it's strictly your opinion.

Also, stop hiding under Bill's pants leg. If your argument is so convincing and effective, it doesn't need Bill's endorsement. Unfortunately it's not. It's your opinion vs actual data and rather than look at the data, you rip the data because it fails to support your opinion.

Which is the definition of a strawman argument.
- Jsaquella

I rip the data because it is flawed and lacks context. And I can discuss that in depth and show why it is. And I have looked at the data involving Grossmann. I've also looked at all the video that is available. I've seen it posted multiple times that Grossmann fails the eye test. I've yet to see anything that backs up that opinion.
I'll be happy to continue to discuss any factor if Grossmann's game in depth. But not interested in continuing along the course that the conversation has taken because a dissenting opinion has been given.

i know they basically breed defensemen down there, but i really think josi is pretty damn good, and only going to become even better. i think he could be a top pairing dman on his own team, and drastically make the flyers better as early as next year while being young enough to grow with the core and become a part of the foundation. since im done female doging momentarily about school, shall i play poile? initial offer?
- stayinthefnnet

Lenny Dykstra and Kyle Korver