The last part was a mischaracterization of what was said, but who cares at this point.

Your case against analytics and your "effective" argument that refutes the criticism against Grossmann is no more than opinion and provides no data. It's just a challenge of the numbers without addressing what those numbers tell us. That's not an effective argument, it's a strawman.

Your demand for data is laughable because you provide zero data, yet demand it from others. My issue is that you demand a higher standard of proof than you are willing to offer and then use opinion to attack data provided by others. It's nonsense and arguing for the sake of an argument. It's kind of sad I fell into this time.
- Jsaquella

May I ask you for the data on Gusty? I'd like to see if the team is actually better with him in the lineup like how you showed the team was worse with Grossman in the lineup.

It's kind of sad I fell into this time.
- Jsaquella

/patontheback

The last part was a mischaracterization of what was said, but who cares at this point.

Your case against analytics and your "effective" argument that refutes the criticism against Grossmann is no more than opinion and provides no data. It's just a challenge of the numbers without addressing what those numbers tell us. That's not an effective argument, it's a strawman.

Your demand for data is laughable because you provide zero data, yet demand it from others. My issue you you demand a higher standard of proof than you are willing to offer and then use opinion to attack data provided by others. It's nonsense and arguing for the sake of an argument. It's kind of sad I fell into this time.
- Jsaquella

Randy Jones has played in 148 NHL games since 2009. Shouldnt have let that top 4 d-man go.

in that playoff series abomination between the pens and flyers, i thought grossman was probably the only one on either team concerned with defense. i remember at least a couple times he stymied malkin either crashing to the net or tying him up for a putback. so maybe im a little biased in evaluation, but i really dont think hes a problem for you guys. he becomes problematic when asked to do things he cant, but in his role i always thought he was fine.
- stayinthefnnet

A player like Grossmann can be exposed when the team game is lacking. You see the same thing when the Flyers played the Pens in the playoffs a few years back. If you're going ot subject a player like Grossmann to a heavy forecheck, where defenseman are out numbered on the puck, with no puck support. Well he's not going to all of sudden stick handle out of traffic, and make a tape to tape pass up the wall, and use hsi quickness to beat the forecheck. Doesn't have that ability. But when the team game is solid, he make the simple plays, use chips off the wall, and reverses and rims to move the puck. As well as provide solid defensive physical play. That is his game. If he has to do anything more, well then that's not going to happen. He is limited in his puck skills.

1. to an extent, this is the one point i will concede on. but still, then this condemns literally 99.9 percent of the other institutions as failures at their ultimate job.
2. i realize i am paying for it. (likely one of the only ones at the law school doing such). but youre also misinterpreting my argument. i dont want time off from school. far from it. i need to know this, and time out of the classroom is a detriment. i just dont want to have to pull my car out of the snow 4 times to get there to do it. so do what the norm is for schools, cancel it for safety/travel reasons and make it up at a later date.
3. A. the law school has strict regulations on working, with it being flat out banned for a large number of the students. and even for the college as a whole, the number of full time day students working is relatively low. in fact, the evening classes (which would likely house more working students, no?) have already been canceled. so that one doesnt hold up to me.
and 4. by this logic, see atlanta georgia, and their subsequent response to even less. its all relative.
- stayinthefnnet

This is why I went to school in California. Don't have to worry about anything other than studying.

I had a buddy in law school who tutored for money. He made bank an hour just tutoring for law.

The last part was a mischaracterization of what was said, but who cares at this point.

Your case against analytics and your "effective" argument that refutes the criticism against Grossmann is no more than opinion and provides no data. It's just a challenge of the numbers without addressing what those numbers tell us. That's not an effective argument, it's a strawman.

Your demand for data is laughable because you provide zero data, yet demand it from others. My issue is that you demand a higher standard of proof than you are willing to offer and then use opinion to attack data provided by others. It's nonsense and arguing for the sake of an argument. It's kind of sad I fell into this time.
- Jsaquella

Grossmann is still developing. His offense will come. Don't worry. Everything going to be alright.

Grossman is a much better player than Grossmann.. The extra "N" must be slowing him down.

Grossman is a much better player than Grossmann.. The extra "N" must be slowing him down.
- jak521

I once saw Grossmann kill a bear with his bare hands.

Grossmann is still developing. His offense will come. Don't worry. Everything going to be alright.
- PhillySportsGuy

he's 29

I once saw Grossmann kill a bear with his bare hands.
- PhillySportsGuy

Bear in woods?

guess grossman is the new carle?

he's 29
- 2Real

he's 29
- 2Real

Big defenseman take time to develop. Give him another few years

A player like Grossmann can be exposed when the team game is lacking. You see the same thing when the Flyers played the Pens in the playoffs a few years back. If you're going ot subject a player like Grossmann to a heavy forecheck, where defenseman are out numbered on the puck, with no puck support. Well he's not going to all of sudden stick handle out of traffic, and make a tape to tape pass up the wall, and use hsi quickness to beat the forecheck. Doesn't have that ability. But when the team game is solid, he make the simple plays, use chips off the wall, and reverses and rims to move the puck. As well as provide solid defensive physical play. That is his game. If he has to do anything more, well then that's not going to happen. He is limited in his puck skills.
- MJL

you dont have to convince me of anything man. i think with grossman, it should be a pretty cut and dry case. he is what he is. if you expect more out of him, youre going to get burned. he cant really make an exit pass that will wow you, but he can be physical, take the body, clear the net, that sort of thing. stick/puck/offense, hes not your man. the forwards are going to need to make an effort to come in closer in order to leave the zone. if that doesnt happen, he can look bad in a hurry.

Bear in woods?
- youarewrong

Its not secret that Bryz is terrified of Grossmann

The last part was a mischaracterization of what was said, but who cares at this point.

Your case against analytics and your "effective" argument that refutes the criticism against Grossmann is no more than opinion and provides no data. It's just a challenge of the numbers without addressing what those numbers tell us. That's not an effective argument, it's a strawman.

Your demand for data is laughable because you provide zero data, yet demand it from others. My issue is that you demand a higher standard of proof than you are willing to offer and then use opinion to attack data provided by others. It's nonsense and arguing for the sake of an argument. It's kind of sad I fell into this time.
- Jsaquella

I disagree that it's a strawman argument. In fact the argument that I offer is often talked about on many of the advanced stats web sites in that the stats have be used in the correct context. In terms of Grossmann, they are being badly misused to serve an agenda. And I posted why on the other thread, and Bill Meltzer agreed with me. And he's going to write a blog in the near future that will be about Grossmann, which I think will echo a lot of the thoughts that I offered on Grossmann.
I asked for data on what was being said about Grossmann and his blocked shots because I know it doesn't exist, and what was being said about it, is simply being invented and is not the reality of the situation.
Like I said previously, I'm willing to look at the replay's of any goal this Season that Grossmann has been on the ice for, or any other video is available, and see where the breakdowns are. And look at ths situations that Grossmann has been in this Season. That's what I'm willing to do to back up my opinion, rather then offer some very suspect advanced statistics that lack context.

And really, moving the discussion away from Grossmann and the player, towards other issues, is the only strawman arguement being offered.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oid6xVUi9Jk

May I ask you for the data on Gusty? I'd like to see if the team is actually better with him in the lineup like how you showed the team was worse with Grossman in the lineup.
- 2Real

http://stats.hockeyanalys...ue&season=2013-14&sit=5v5

Gustafsson doesn't have better across the board numbers for everyone, but there's not an across the board decline as with Grossmann.

http://stats.hockeyanalys...ue&season=2013-14&sit=5v5

Simply compare the CF% total in the "When One Ice Together" column vs the CF% in the "Teammate When Apart" column.

guess grossman is the new carle?
- PhillaBully

Yup. He wasn't really high on the list for the annual Flyer Spacegoat award, but he is certainly the front runner at this point.

Grossmann is still developing. His offense will come. Don't worry. Everything going to be alright.
- PhillySportsGuy

i can be the richard and tell you that the organization likely currently doesnt have the player it needs to fix the backend woes. channel your hate towards the whiney penguins fan

In day games when the weather outside is above 36 degrees and the Flyers are coming off a win, Grossmann's numbers in the first period decline in accordance with the position of the sun relative to high noon at a 3:1 ratio against left handed centers.

i can be the richard and tell you that the organization likely currently doesnt have the player it needs to fix the backend woes. channel your hate towards the whiney penguins fan
- stayinthefnnet

Not true. If we sub in Mez for Grossmann, it's all good.

Not true. If we sub in Mez for Grossmann, it's all good.
- PhillySportsGuy

clearly.

Not true. If we sub in Mez for Grossmann, it's all good.
- PhillySportsGuy

Grossmann sometimes makes bad reads and gets caught out of position defensively. Meszaros just stands still and hopes the puck comes to him.