He's very bad at moving the puck out of the zone. He's not very good with the puck on his stick in any situation, doesn't matter which zone it is.

That's not to say he's incapable of having the puck on his stick and making a smart play, but you don't have to tell even Grossman himself it's not his strong suit.

When he's tracking well in his zone, winning puck battles, and making smart decisions with the puck, there's not an argument out there for Grossman not being in the line-up.

He is what he is: a solid bottom pairing dman who can kill penalties, block a ton of shots, and hit anyone wearing the wrong jersey shift in and shift out. This team's issues defensively go way past just over-analyzing one player, especially a guy whose in the 4-6 range in the pecking order.
- mochoson

I agree for the most part, except for Grossmann being a bottom pairing defenseman. He's a solid 2nd pair defensive defenseman in my opinion.

Think they are something like 7-2 since Maurice took over. Playing a more defensive and composed style. They have some good younger pieces in Kane, Bogosian, Trouba and Morrissey. Scheifele as well has seemed to find his NHL game. 32 points this season.

Wheeler, Ladd and Frolik are decent players as well.

I think you see a move this summer. As patience was really running thin before the coaching change. I do think there is some magic going on but once that wears off Maurice will face the same issues. Jets lack talent, I really do think Buff is moved. Guy is playing full time wing right now.

I still don't like them though. Mixed between enjoying to watch them lose, but I don't want the team to move. Gives me a chance to see the Flyers once a year usually.
- flyer_nutter

For some reason I see Kane being moved. He just seems like one of those guys who needs a change of scenery.

That would be the part where the defenseman is not the only one involved in clearing the zone on any play or shift in a game. Unless you believe that Grossmann is the only reason why the Flyers struggle getting out of their zone. On any zone clear the defenseman can make the play, move the puck correctly and efficiently to the forwards, and the forward can turn the puck over and make an errant pass. So it then becomes a failed clear as the puck didn't reach the red line. So the defenseman gets penalized for the failed clear. The article and the data doesn't take any of that into account. The author just draws poor conclusions to back up his agenda. Lot's of holes there.
The Flyers issue of not getting the puck out of the zone is a team issue, and not just a defenseman issue, or anyone player issue. It's a team issue. And certainly the lack of puck skills of the defenseman, and the mix of defenseman is definitely part of it.
- MJL

Very good points friend. Spot on. Blaming any one player for defensive issues, regardless of the team and situation, is just plain silly.

One of many reasons why I'm not big on advanced stats.

That...is a tough one. I haven't seen enough of Green to know how he skates, anymore -- he used to be able to really move, but I don't how his groin/skating have held up with all the injuries.

I think Streit's been fine, so I'm not one of those who feels he has to go. But I do believe what you just said: Guys like Mike Green are weapons. He has a skillset, and an approach to the game, that I think is of significant value, if his body is holding up.
- AllInForFlyers

No worries. I do like Green, always have. He is one of those I would look at considering the price of course. He has big injury issues, and imo doesn't have the defensive game of even say a guy like Buff or Yandle.

If he can be had for cheap though, I'd be interested.

He's not as dynamic, but he's still a very capable offensive defenseman. I wouldn't be against the Flyers looking at him, despite his weakness as a defensive player.
- Jsaquella

If he's still an average-to-plus skater, he's definitely the kind of guy who could help open up some transition offense.

He's the kind of player who I'd like to see on the roster, sooner rather than later.

When every other player on the entire roster has worse numbers with Grossmann, I think it's fair to use the numbers as a factor in rating him.

Nobody's saying Grossmann hasn't faced quality competition. He has, and he plays tough minutes.

Unfortunately, IMO, he's also badly failed the eyeball test. There's been numerous times where he's blown coverage or been beaten and it's led to a goal. Numerous times he's mde an unforced error with the puck and made a bad turnover or unnecessary icing.

And yes, stay at home defensemen do tend to get unfairly judged by possession metrics. No question. But Grossmann hasn't played well fr most of the year, either using statistical analysis or by simply watching. Disagree all you want, when you base it on that, it's all opinion anyhow.

He still has a place, but it's as a 5th/6th physical guy, playing a limited role and playing with a mobile partner who is capable in his own end.
- Jsaquella

wow great posts i didn't realize this
what about coburn's stats?

No worries. I do like Green, always have. He is one of those I would look at considering the price of course. He has big injury issues, and imo doesn't have the defensive game of even say a guy like Buff or Yandle.

If he can be had for cheap though, I'd be interested.
- flyer_nutter

he might be great to stick with a great stay at home dman though

If he's still an average-to-plus skater, he's definitely the kind of guy who could help open up some transition offense.

He's the kind of player who I'd like to see on the roster, sooner rather than later.
- AllInForFlyers

I personally would not be in favor of adding another one dimensional offensive defenseman to this mix with Streit already being part of it.

If he's still an average-to-plus skater, he's definitely the kind of guy who could help open up some transition offense.

He's the kind of player who I'd like to see on the roster, sooner rather than later.
- AllInForFlyers

Where the Flyers are kind of stuck is, there's not a lot in free agency to help. The most attractive name to be, besides a short term solution like Dan Boyle or a guy who will likely get overpaid, like Dan Girardi, is Anton Stralman. He's had a very solid season for the Rangers, is capable in both ends of the ice and is cheap right now.

For some reason I see Kane being moved. He just seems like one of those guys who needs a change of scenery.
- ravishingone

I don't know. The problem with moving Kane is the Jets will want NHL ready talent.
Getting prospects or a collection of lesser parts isn't a step forward imo.

Kane is better than anyone the Flyers have, maybe other than Giroux.

he might be great to stick with a great stay at home dman though
- 2Real

Its playing with fire.

He would be at the bottom of my list past guys like Edler, Yandle or Buff. If the price is right though, I wouldn't hesitate to make a deal.

This whole thing of having Streit already... Well buy his ass out.

I agree for the most part, except for Grossmann being a bottom pairing defenseman. He's a solid 2nd pair defensive defenseman in my opinion.
- MJL

I think were me and you likely disagree on that is the "solid" part. That, to me anyway, insinuates Grossman can play in your top 4 no matter what.

I see him as a guy who can play on the 2nd pair most of the time dependent upon who is partner is. For example, I wouldn't pair him with Luke Schenn, who I personally consider a "solid" 2nd pairing dman.

My reasoning behind this (and I use this for a lot of this scenarios) is..."Where would player X fit on Boston/St Louis/Chicago/San Jose/LA". In Grossman's case, he's likely on the bottom pair of all of those teams with healthy line-ups, but still playing close to 17-19 minutes a game when you add in PK time.

Just my 2 cents.

I personally would not be in favor of adding another one dimensional offensive defenseman to this mix with Streit already being part of it.
- MJL

I tend to agree, unless it's a guy with some serious skating ability like Brian Campbell.

If he's still an average-to-plus skater, he's definitely the kind of guy who could help open up some transition offense.

He's the kind of player who I'd like to see on the roster, sooner rather than later.
- AllInForFlyers

Well, they tried to load up on slower, bad transitional guys with limited ability....God forbid they add a one way guy who can actually skate the puck out of trouble.

Where the Flyers are kind of stuck is, there's not a lot in free agency to help. The most attractive name to be, besides a short term solution like Dan Boyle or a guy who will likely get overpaid, like Dan Girardi, is Anton Stralman. He's had a very solid season for the Rangers, is capable in both ends of the ice and is cheap right now.
- Jsaquella

Trust me, I do not believe that free agency is going to solve the Flyers' problems.

I wouldn't mind Stralman on the roster, the problem is that he's another bottom-pair guy on a team that already has too many -- especially if/when Timonen goes.

That being said, I'd absolutely take a lateral move for more mobility, and Stralman's always been able to skate.

I don't know. The problem with moving Kane is the Jets will want NHL ready talent.
Getting prospects or a collection of lesser parts isn't a step forward imo.

Kane is better than anyone the Flyers have, maybe other than Giroux.
- flyer_nutter

Absolutely agree the assets to get a Kane would be substantial. Highly unlikely, but G and Kane paired together. wow.

Philip Seymore Hoffman.

Another fine young actor gone. Shame.

Pirate Radio. Terrific cast. Entertaining movie that nobody saw.

Its playing with fire.

He would be at the bottom of my list past guys like Edler, Yandle or Buff. If the price is right though, I wouldn't hesitate to make a deal.

This whole thing of having Streit already... Well buy his ass out.
- flyer_nutter

nah streit is starting to grow on me more and more yea he can be a bone head at times but he's not an exceptional bone head i just think we need some better chemistry for our d pairs

I think were me and you likely disagree on that is the "solid" part. That, to me anyway, insinuates Grossman can play in your top 4 no matter what.

I see him as a guy who can play on the 2nd pair most of the time dependent upon who is partner is. For example, I wouldn't pair him with Luke Schenn, who I personally consider a "solid" 2nd pairing dman.

My reasoning behind this (and I use this for a lot of this scenarios) is..."Where would player X fit on Boston/St Louis/Chicago/San Jose/LA". In Grossman's case, he's likely on the bottom pair of all of those teams with healthy line-ups, but still playing close to 17-19 minutes a game when you add in PK time.

Just my 2 cents.
- mochoson

I always loved that comparison. Comparing yourself to the other teams in the league is key imo. Not as a sole indicator but it needs to be done. Who currently on the Flyers D-core would probably play in the top 4 of most elite NHL teams. Coburn, and maybe Timonen.

Well, they tried to load up on slower, bad transitional guys with limited ability....God forbid they add a one way guy who can actually skate the puck out of trouble.
- Jsaquella

Yeah...man. It'd be interesting to see how this team would look with a guy who could consistently do that.

The thing about McPhee is that he's such a cautious trader -- he appears to be one of those who won't trade in his division.

I think were me and you likely disagree on that is the "solid" part. That, to me anyway, insinuates Grossman can play in your top 4 no matter what.

I see him as a guy who can play on the 2nd pair most of the time dependent upon who is partner is. For example, I wouldn't pair him with Luke Schenn, who I personally consider a "solid" 2nd pairing dman.

My reasoning behind this (and I use this for a lot of this scenarios) is..."Where would player X fit on Boston/St Louis/Chicago/San Jose/LA". In Grossman's case, he's likely on the bottom pair of all of those teams with healthy line-ups, but still playing close to 17-19 minutes a game when you add in PK time.

Just my 2 cents.
- mochoson

With any player or defenseman, you look at how they compliment each other to make a solid pairing. I guess it comes down to how you want to rate your players. By the metric that you propose, that means that there's only 10 legitimate 2nd pairing defenseman in the NHL. And we know that's not the case. And by the way, I agree that Grossmann wouldn't play in the top 4 for any of those teams, but he would look a hell of a lot better playing there.
I do however think that you can use that as a measuring stick of how the Flyers need to improve the mix of their back end, by comparing it to the better teams in the League. But I don't think that changes what kind of player Grossmann is.

Trust me, I do not believe that free agency is going to solve the Flyers' problems.

I wouldn't mind Stralman on the roster, the problem is that he's another bottom-pair guy on a team that already has too many -- especially if/when Timonen goes.

That being said, I'd absolutely take a lateral move for more mobility, and Stralman's always been able to skate.
- AllInForFlyers

Stralman is a capable second pair guy. He's been in a top four role for the Rangers and handled it well. Not as much offense as one would like, but he's definitely more mobile than most of the current group

Well, they tried to load up on slower, bad transitional guys with limited ability....God forbid they add a one way guy who can actually skate the puck out of trouble.
- Jsaquella

Basically, another Coburn.

I think that's exactly what this team needs. Doesn't necessarily have to be a guy whose scoring 45-50 points. That's what we signed Streit for, IMO.

We need another Coburn whose a little better with the puck. We need that additional skating dynamic. We need a guy who can push other teams back a little bit in the neutral zone because he can skate.

As much as I really like Braydon Coburn, I always feel left wanting more. For how good a skater the guy is, I'll never understand why he's not more of a two-way threat.

I think were me and you likely disagree on that is the "solid" part. That, to me anyway, insinuates Grossman can play in your top 4 no matter what.

I see him as a guy who can play on the 2nd pair most of the time dependent upon who is partner is. For example, I wouldn't pair him with Luke Schenn, who I personally consider a "solid" 2nd pairing dman.

My reasoning behind this (and I use this for a lot of this scenarios) is..."Where would player X fit on Boston/St Louis/Chicago/San Jose/LA". In Grossman's case, he's likely on the bottom pair of all of those teams with healthy line-ups, but still playing close to 17-19 minutes a game when you add in PK time.

Just my 2 cents.
- mochoson

i wonder if the sharks would do a justin braun or matt irwin for grossman trade

Watching the Caps/Wings games, and we should be lucky that the Flyers play D at all.

Caps are .