It's what keeps us from being a top tier team, but we WERE a playoff team prior to those losses.

So essentially what everyone is saying here is that we'd be no further along in the standings without those injuries...Wow. Then Amac should be extended afterall!
- keaner17

Nobody is arguing that the injuries didn't affect this teams record. The point is it shouldn't have. Snow failed to address areas that needed to be. He also kept a sub par coach on that should've been fired at the very Earliest during a ten game losing streak. Snow dropped the ball in the offseason and during the season! That's the point. That's the debate of which there's none IMO.

Agreed...
Look, my point is this:
I agree that Snow didn't upgrade positions to make this team BETTER.
However, i think it can be widely agreed that If Nabby starts the wealth of Poulins games.
If Visnovsky is playing Amacs role all season.
If Strait is playing Carkners/Martineks or even Hickey's role this season
and If Hamonic hasn't missed the last several games, at the very least we're flirting with third in our division.
It's not the leap we all wanted and Snow is responsible...but this team would have been there were it not for those injuries.
- keaner17

True, but this team is known to have the most injuries year after year. Surely Snow should have been ready for that.The amount of momentum we had going into this season combined with having now three of the best forwards in the entire league should leave us right at the top with Pitt, instead we are below teams like CBJ, NJD and Hurricanes. Its embarrassing.

Stop regardless of the injuries or not this team would be where they are. Again History repeats on this team year after year. November they just cant play hockey for some reason.

Give me a coach who is going to motivate this team no matter who they have on the ice and that team will be fine. Give me a coach who can use his teams strengths they will be fine. Jack has no clue what he is doing. Bailey and Regin should not even be on the ice to be honest. I rather see them bring up some kids. I am sure they will play with more heart
- kasperrko

I'm not disagreeing on Bailey and Regin or the coach. We made the playoffs in spite of the coach last year. And that's again the point. With as thin as this team is on defense, losing players like that makes issues you can typically mask like bad coaching and poor depth players all the more obvious.

This isn't about whether the team could have been better. Typical Hockey Buzz conversations it seems to morph into something beyond the original point.

The point is, if you asked most here at the beginning of the season if last years team with Vanek added would make a run at the playoffs again...most would have said 'yes'.
The double talk is hilarious from some. Amac is terrible terrible terrible (and man do I agree), but his having to play top line minutes and qb the pp had no impact on our success this year

Nobody is arguing that the injuries didn't affect this teams record. The point is it shouldn't have. Snow failed to address areas that needed to be. He also kept a sub par coach on that should've been fired at the very Earliest during a ten game losing streak. Snow dropped the ball in the offseason and during the season! That's the point. That's the debate of which there's none IMO.
- Cptmjl

Stop regardless of the injuries or not this team would be where they are.
- kasperrko

It's funny because I continue to add in each line that Snow failed by not upgrading the roster, yet I get it repeated to me as though I never said it at all.

No one is excusing Snow. that said, despite is failures, I'd say this team SHOULD have been a playoff team....

And how did they do that? By staying on the forecheck for virtually the entirety of every game they played. It's a pace that you can't expect to keep up for 82 games, which is why you need a capable D and goaltender, or heck, at least one of the two, to make up for it when you can't score 4 goals in a game. I just think you're overstating the impact of the players injured. Vis was playing Monday night and they gave up six goals.

If I create an NHL team, and I have you, me and LGI as the top three d-men and Kasper in net, and the four of us get hurt and we lose every game, did we lose every game because four beer-leaguers got hurt (they were our top-three D and starting goalie!) or did we lose every game because four beer-leaguers were the best defense we threw out there to begin with?
- UIF

if visnovsky, strait hamonic and nabby dont get hurt, how many more/less points do you (or anyone else who doesnt think those 4 make a big difference) estimate the team would have?

Not JUST staying on the forecheck. They did it by having fantastic chemistry on in their own zone. I repeatedly remarked last season how much the defensive zone play reminded me of the Red Wings, that our transitional play was fantastic, quick no look passes by the dmen to get out of jams where they seemingly knew where the other were at all times.

As for Vis returning and giving up six goals It was his first game back...Nabby still out...Hamonic still out....
I would counter your final comparison (which I don't think works), by saying...if we had lost Lubo, Hamonic, Strait and Nabby for more than half of last season, do you think we would have made the playoffs?
- keaner17

Since you shoot down all of my comparisons, I'll shoot yours down by saying last season was unique. I'm not saying the Isles couldn't have made the playoffs if it was a full season, but there is certainly a difference between a 40+ game sprint and an 80+ game slog. The Isles' great run and amazing play toward the end of last season would have had to have been sustained for a lot longer in a full season. So, could the Isles have kept that frenetic pace up over a full season even with Vis, Hamonic, Strait and Nabby? That's the question we should be asking, and probably what management should have asked before this season.

Look, I'm not trying to act like a know-it-all or anything. I didn't think the Isles would be last in their division the entire season, and I was probably overly optimistic about how much the offense could compensate for a poorly constructed D. Guilty as charged. But even blinded by optimism I said before the season started that the D was the biggest concern, even more so than goaltending, and that I didn't think they'd be able to hold up, as constructed, under a sustained forecheck. I just don't think the goals against is really that surprising, injuries or no, and I'm just not sure an offensive d-man like Vis makes the difference that you're arguing in the goals-against category. The team needs a D-man or two that puts people into the boards, or throws a big check once in a while at the blue line, or punishes people who park in front of the net...something to prevent other teams from gaining and holding the zone so easily. None of the d-men you list have really done that with any consistency. It's still a gaping hole even if they're healthy.

It's funny because I continue to add in each line that Snow failed by not upgrading the roster, yet I get it repeated to me as though I never said it at all.

No one is excusing Snow. that said, despite is failures, I'd say this team SHOULD have been a playoff team....
- keaner17

Let me ask though. I know you are an Islander fan through and through but why do you defend the team? For years they have done nothing to improve the club for years they have used an miserable coach. so why?

Nobody is arguing that the injuries didn't affect this teams record. The point is it shouldn't have. Snow failed to address areas that needed to be. He also kept a sub par coach on that should've been fired at the very Earliest during a ten game losing streak. Snow dropped the ball in the offseason and during the season! That's the point. That's the debate of which there's none IMO.
- Cptmjl

can we eliminate this from any argument cause quite frankly i dont think there is anyone here that doesnt think snow's leash on cappy is not nearly tight enough...

if visnovsky, strait hamonic and nabby dont get hurt, how many more/less points do you (or anyone else who doesnt think those 4 make a big difference) estimate the team would have?
- LetsGoIsles

So, if we set injuries to "off" on our Xboxes?

Playing that game involves factoring in the amount of extra points Columbus might have if they had Horton, Gaborik and Bobrovsky healthy all season, or if Carolina didn't have to trot out a third-string goaltender for a good chunk of the season, etc. The Isles might have some extra points, sure, but might still be exactly where they are in the standings.

It's funny because I continue to add in each line that Snow failed by not upgrading the roster, yet I get it repeated to me as though I never said it at all.

No one is excusing Snow. that said, despite is failures, I'd say this team SHOULD have been a playoff team....
- keaner17

So you're saying Snow's not to blame!

Let me ask though. I know you are an Islander fan through and through but why do you defend the team? For years they have done nothing to improve the club for years they have used an miserable coach. so why?
- kasperrko

I think you should backread to where this conversation began.
My original comment was responding to a conversation that had little to do with Snow at all and in fact followed a comment I had just made stating Snow failed.:

Agreed 100%
I still say Nabby was a fallback for plans that fell through. Otherwise his contract would have been extended earlier. I have to think there was SOMEONE mgmt had in their sights but ultimately couldn't get.
Hindsight is great and a few people did indeed call the disaster early on, though I think some would have yelled 'iceberg' no matter what we did.
Most teams in the league are thin at defense. Very few teams could sustain those losses and certainly with an inferior coach, we aren't one of them

Now for anyone to deny that losing those players had any effect on where we are in the standings is either in denial or just desperate to use an ends to justify their means.

So, if we set injuries to "off" on our Xboxes?

Playing that game involves factoring in the amount of extra points Columbus might have if they had Horton, Gaborik and Bobrovsky healthy all season, or if Carolina didn't have to trot out a third-string goaltender for a good chunk of the season, etc. The Isles might have some extra points, sure, but might still be exactly where they are in the standings.
- UIF

adorable but you get where im going with it.

and comparing dmen with forwards/goalies is apples and oranges, everyone knows dmen are most valuable and hardest to find.

point is even if vis, strait, hamonic and nabby were injured for half the time they were out, isles would be in much better shape. having andrew macdonald as the #1 dman by default bc the 3 guys in front of him are injured isnt all on snow. donovan has quite frankly not been good and snow was able to bring up dehaan but sometimes just bad luck hits the team.

as keaner has said in his previous 15 posts, name one team that can sustain winning after losing their top 3 dmen and starting goalie for long period of time.

Since you shoot down all of my comparisons, I'll shoot yours down by saying last season was unique. I'm not saying the Isles couldn't have made the playoffs if it was a full season, but there is certainly a difference between a 40+ game sprint and an 80+ game slog. The Isles' great run and amazing play toward the end of last season would have had to have been sustained for a lot longer in a full season. So, could the Isles have kept that frenetic pace up over a full season even with Vis, Hamonic, Strait and Nabby? That's the question we should be asking, and probably what management should have asked before this season.

Look, I'm not trying to act like a know-it-all or anything. I didn't think the Isles would be last in their division the entire season, and I was probably overly optimistic about how much the offense could compensate for a poorly constructed D. Guilty as charged. But even blinded by optimism I said before the season started that the D was the biggest concern, even more so than goaltending, and that I didn't think they'd be able to hold up, as constructed, under a sustained forecheck. I just don't think the goals against is really that surprising, injuries or no, and I'm just not sure an offensive d-man like Vis makes the difference that you're arguing in the goals-against category. The team needs a D-man or two that puts people into the boards, or throws a big check once in a while at the blue line, or punishes people who park in front of the net...something to prevent other teams from gaining and holding the zone so easily. None of the d-men you list have really done that with any consistency. It's still a gaping hole even if they're healthy.
- UIF

And most of us felt it was a tenuous situation on defense, which makes the statement that losing those three dmen for an extended period all the more valid. Again, you felt the defense was a bad situation, would you have felt just as confident if I had told you 'oh yea, and Vis/Hamonic/Strait will all miss most of the season"?
The point was, outside of losing JT, this was pretty much the most unsustainable loss for this team this year and it killed us. Forget about whether preseason precautions could have been taken. I'm saying that with those guys healthy, this team is up with the Rangers.

I think you should backread to where this conversation began.
My original comment was responding to a conversation that had little to do with Snow at all and in fact followed a comment I had just made stating Snow failed.:

Agreed 100%
I still say Nabby was a fallback for plans that fell through. Otherwise his contract would have been extended earlier. I have to think there was SOMEONE mgmt had in their sights but ultimately couldn't get.
Hindsight is great and a few people did indeed call the disaster early on, though I think some would have yelled 'iceberg' no matter what we did.
Most teams in the league are thin at defense. Very few teams could sustain those losses and certainly with an inferior coach, we aren't one of them

Now for anyone to deny that losing those players had any effect on where we are in the standings is either in denial or just desperate to use an ends to justify their means.
- keaner17

And to argue it's the deciding factor on this season is a bit much...as I said before, adding point to the Isles in the standings and not adding any point to other teams that have had injuries is nonsense. If you want to say the Isles have 8 extra points, and give Columbus 6 extra points for the loss of their goaltender and two best forwards by far, then guess what? They're still ahead of us.

adorable but you get where im going with it.

and comparing dmen with forwards/goalies is apples and oranges, everyone knows dmen are most valuable and hardest to find.

point is even if vis, strait, hamonic and nabby were injured for half the time they were out, isles would be in much better shape. having andrew macdonald as the #1 dman by default bc the 3 guys in front of him are injured isnt all on snow. donovan has quite frankly not been good and snow was able to bring up dehaan but sometimes just bad luck hits the team.

as keaner has said in his previous 15 posts, name one team that can sustain winning after losing their top 3 dmen and starting goalie for long period of time.
- LetsGoIsles

this still cracks me up our top 3 defenseman!! Yeah maybe for an ECHL team but not an NHL team. This is the team good ole Garth put together. Injuries are part of the game and you have to prepare for them by getting quality back ups. Garth failed again

I think you should backread to where this conversation began.
My original comment was responding to a conversation that had little to do with Snow at all and in fact followed a comment I had just made stating Snow failed.:

Agreed 100%
I still say Nabby was a fallback for plans that fell through. Otherwise his contract would have been extended earlier. I have to think there was SOMEONE mgmt had in their sights but ultimately couldn't get.
Hindsight is great and a few people did indeed call the disaster early on, though I think some would have yelled 'iceberg' no matter what we did.
Most teams in the league are thin at defense. Very few teams could sustain those losses and certainly with an inferior coach, we aren't one of them

Now for anyone to deny that losing those players had any effect on where we are in the standings is either in denial or just desperate to use an ends to justify their means.
- keaner17

I think the whole thing started with me blaming Cappy for not adjusting to the injuries and Cptmjl blaming Snow for being so thin at D in the first place. As has been said before, there is more than enough blame for both of them. We've seen this argument many times on this board. Its kind of pointless.

And to argue it's the deciding factor on this season is a bit much...as I said before, adding point to the Isles in the standings and not adding any point to other teams that have had injuries is nonsense. If you want to say the Isles have 8 extra points, and give Columbus 6 extra points for the loss of their goaltender and two best forwards by far, then guess what? They're still ahead of us.
- UIF

Some people will defend this team no matter what. Truth of the matter is this team is below average. With a below average coaching staff, Below average defense and below average goalie. It is what we know and most on here accept

Very good. When Stamkos went down I was like well there goes Tampa but nope they have a quality team with a great goalie. Who heard of Ben Bishop much before this year
- kasperrko

most of us....

XxNYIxX

And most of us felt it was a tenuous situation on defense, which makes the statement that losing those three dmen for an extended period all the more valid. Again, you felt the defense was a bad situation, would you have felt just as confident if I had told you 'oh yea, and Vis/Hamonic/Strait will all miss most of the season"?
The point was, outside of losing JT, this was pretty much the most unsustainable loss for this team this year and it killed us. Forget about whether preseason precautions could have been taken. I'm saying that with those guys healthy, this team is up with the Rangers.
- keaner17

No, but I'd say the difference is not as many goals against as you believe. Cardboard is stronger than a sheet of paper, but a good pair of scissors cuts through both without much difficulty. That's why we keep bringing up the names themselves. Saying that Strait filling Hickey's role makes that much of a difference...sorry...I just disagree. Hamonic was there for a good part of the season and looked shaky as hell for a big chunk of the time he was in. Same with Nabby. Would it have made some difference? Sure. Enough of a difference, after factoring in no injuries for anyone else? I just highly doubt it. The D needs help to get the best out of even our good players like Hamonic and Vis. Don't forget, even with Vis, Hamonic and AMac was our top shutdown pair, charged with playing against other teams' top forwards, who tend to feast on the Isles regardless of whether they're healthy or not. That pairing was a disaster for a shutdown role this season, and was intact for plenty of it.

I think the whole thing started with me blaming Cappy for not adjusting to the injuries and Cptmjl blaming Snow for being so thin at D in the first place. As has been said before, there is more than enough blame for both of them. We've seen this argument many times on this board. Its kind of pointless.
- JimmyP

I love the comparison UIF brought out with Colombus. they lost there Vezina trophy winner Bobrovsky they lost Gaborik, Horton their best players and still they beat us and are still better than us. Those three guys are way better then all the injuries we had but they still win why?? Cause they were built to win with a great coach and staff

To be honest I think they will still be in a playoff position. They have Stevie Y who would do something to make sure his team does not falter. Also they have a coach who knows how to use his teams skills. so I think they would be just fine to be honest
- kasperrko

Why??

What has he done to make that statement the golden rule?

What big moves has he made, where his track record would make you assume he would do something?

XxNYIxX

I think the whole thing started with me blaming Cappy for not adjusting to the injuries and Cptmjl blaming Snow for being so thin at D in the first place. As has been said before, there is more than enough blame for both of them. We've seen this argument many times on this board. Its kind of pointless.
- JimmyP

Blame Canada!

XxNYIxX

So you're saying Snow's not to blame!


- JimmyP

OVER AND OVER AND OVER

the top 4 dmen were either injured or amac, i dont think any goalie could have been THAT much better. better? yes. 10-12 pts better? no chance
- LetsGoIsles

Statistically the isles are last in the NHL in goaltending. It's not all on the defense. Poulin sucks and nabby is average at best

And to argue it's the deciding factor on this season is a bit much...as I said before, adding point to the Isles in the standings and not adding any point to other teams that have had injuries is nonsense. If you want to say the Isles have 8 extra points, and give Columbus 6 extra points for the loss of their goaltender and two best forwards by far, then guess what? They're still ahead of us.
- UIF

It is the deciding factor based on what was on the ice as of game 1. Obviously there are plenty of other factors that go into the results of a season, but when you claim this team was weak on defense and than subtract it's top three defenders and goaltender, I think it's reasonable to assume we could have been in the playoff picture had that not happened. That's all I've said, yet somehow it morphs into my defending Garth, etc...