i agree.

and grossmann is your new lava.
- hammarby31

He played well tonight. Hopefully he continues it.

Honestly, part of my issue with him is the useage and pairings he gets. Berube leans on him far too heavily and that makes his shortcomings loom larger.

If they went out and cleaned house on defense, and Grossmann was back with a better mix of guys, I wouldn't harp on him.

I'd always have played Gus, but the problem is exactly what you're saying: They won't. They just won't freaking do it. Or if they do, as soon as he makes a mistake, he's back in the Shelley Suite.

That's why I say they're going to need two: It's clear that, just like Tye McGinn, they're just not going to play them. I don't know why they won't, because it must be something that, as a fan, I just don't understand.

I don't understand why they won't play Gus. But they just won't do it.
- AllInForFlyers

I can see not playing McGinn. He's just a guy. He'll score a few goals and then be invisible for a week. He's a fringe guy. I think Gustafsson can be a top four guy, if he gets a chance.

Biggest knocks on him are size, injuries and play in his own end...but there are guys no bigger or better than him playing top four minutes on good teams.

He played well tonight. Hopefully he continues it.

Honestly, part of my issue with him is the useage and pairings he gets. Berube leans on him far too heavily and that makes his shortcomings loom larger.

If they went out and cleaned house on defense, and Grossmann was back with a better mix of guys, I wouldn't harp on him.
- Jsaquella

we missed his trademark horse collar maneuver after getting beaten flat footed tonight, but he is what he is, he does utilize the tools he has, only his tools are outdated for todays game & against certain players.
But he does block most shots his way.

I can see not playing McGinn. He's just a guy. He'll score a few goals and then be invisible for a week. He's a fringe guy. I think Gustafsson can be a top four guy, if he gets a chance.

Biggest knocks on him are size, injuries and play in his own end...but there are guys no bigger or better than him playing top four minutes on good teams.
- Jsaquella

Agreed -- Gus does get banged up more than you like to see, but he definitely competes...man. Damn it.

They're so close. They have to know it. They have to know that they're close.

we missed his trademark horse collar maneuver after getting beaten flat footed tonight, but he is what he is, he does utilize the tools he has, only his tools are outdated for todays game & against certain players.
But he does block most shots his way.
- puckhead17

If you put him with Timonen, as a third pair, they'd be fantastic. But he's a second pair, with Streit.

Agreed -- Gus does get banged up more than you like to see, but he definitely competes...man. Damn it.

They're so close. They have to know it. They have to know that they're close.
- AllInForFlyers

That worries me. I defended Holmgren for a long time. Now, I'm onboard with firing him.

He's built a talented team that lacks discipline, gets outworked and an expensive defense corps that's mediocre.

I'm not sure I want him being the guy that decides how to take the next step

My problem is several tiers.

They have talent, but get outworked. They have a coach that talks about discipline and accountability, and holds 4 or 5 guys accountable and rarely if ever holds a star player's feet to the fire. They use line combos and defense pairs that don't work well together, and make no changes until they lose a couple. They continuously use guys out of position because of "hot streaks".

It's no better in the front office. The Ohhhhh Shiny approach to adding players remains and the defense is a tire fire.

The only good thing is that they have a winning record through sheer talent. They're not 3 years away, they're a couple of players AND much better discipline away. It's not just avoiding penalties, although that is huge. it's making smart plays, backchecking hard, not forcing low percentage plays and refusing to get outworked.
- Jsaquella

So not a fan of Chief? So don't you think that a 60 minute effort would solve most of the problems.

That worries me. I defended Holmgren for a long time. Now, I'm onboard with firing him.

He's built a talented team that lacks discipline, gets outworked and an expensive defense corps that's mediocre.

I'm not sure I want him being the guy that decides how to take the next step
- Jsaquella

I haven't been enamored with most of his decisions either, but, after we tied it at 2, the shots were even, & then they just jumped all over us & we were as Clement kept saying on most nights "hemmed in our zone"

I know this is the 2nd coach, but, isn't that coaching when a team lacks effort?

the 3rd period needs to answered, as well as the previous game, where they just stop skating.

and no, I'm not knocking Berube, but, what is the deal with these issues that they have with getting outworked?

So not a fan of Chief? So don't you think that a 60 minute effort would solve most of the problems.
- LJF

I'm on the fence with Berube. You can't just talk about being disciplined for months on end and never hold guys accountable.

I mean, he's got his doghouse guys and if they do poorly, they sit. But star players? Guys who are Berube's "boys"? Nope, they keep playing.

You can't instill discipline by sitting Steve Downie for lackluster play or Luke Schenn for a bad penalty when Claude Giroux plays 24 minutes despite 2 lazy back checks that led to goals against.

I haven't been enamored with most of his decisions either, but, after we tied it at 2, the shots were even, & then they just jumped all over us & we were as Clement kept saying on most nights "hemmed in our zone"

I know this is the 2nd coach, but, isn't that coaching when a team lacks effort?

the 3rd period needs to answered, as well as the previous game, where they just stop skating.

and no, I'm not knocking Berube, but, what is the deal with these issues that they have with getting outworked?
- puckhead17

It's the third coach, at least. People were complaining about bad starts and 60 minute efforts under Stevens, Laviolette & now Berube.

More, the roster has been nearly 100% turned over from the start of the 2007-08 season. I think that Hartnell, Timonen and Coburn are only guys left from roster that started Holmgren's first season as GM

I'm on the fence with Berube. You can't just talk about being disciplined for months on end and never hold guys accountable.

I mean, he's got his doghouse guys and if they do poorly, they sit. But star players? Guys who are Berube's "boys"? Nope, they keep playing.

You can't instill discipline by sitting Steve Downie for lackluster play or Luke Schenn for a bad penalty when Claude Giroux plays 24 minutes despite 2 lazy back checks that led to goals against.
- Jsaquella

Jsaq, just curious on your take with this because I've kind of noticed the same. Even if I am just a fickle bastard

Was there not a similar issue under Lava? Holding the lower tier guys accountable, but the golden boys always got away with whatever they wanted? I think if Berube even wanted to say sit Giroux for a few weeks, he would be hand-cuffed by the organization's view to win at all cost.

How long would a coach last in the city benching the best players.

He's built a talented team that lacks discipline, gets outworked and an expensive defense corps that's mediocre.

So how is it Homer's fault that this team is talented but not discipline and gets out worked? That's on the team. The D issue is on him no doubt.

Jsaq, just curious on your take with this because I've kind of noticed the same. Even if I am just a fickle bastard

Was there not a similar issue under Lava? Holding the lower tier guys accountable, but the golden boys always got away with whatever they wanted? I think if Berube even wanted to say sit Giroux for a few weeks, he would be hand-cuffed by the organization's view to win at all cost.

How long would a coach last in the city benching the best players.
- flyer_nutter

sorry, but we don't have the fire power to even entertain this, VL is getting the biggest pass of all.

sorry, but we don't have the fire power to even entertain this, VL is getting the biggest pass of all.
- puckhead17

Nahhhh, Im not saying to do it.

Im saying if the situation was ever to arise, I used Giroux just as an example.

Jsaq, just curious on your take with this because I've kind of noticed the same. Even if I am just a fickle bastard

Was there not a similar issue under Lava? Holding the lower tier guys accountable, but the golden boys always got away with whatever they wanted? I think if Berube even wanted to say sit Giroux for a few weeks, he would be hand-cuffed by the organization's view to win at all cost.

How long would a coach last in the city benching the best players.
- flyer_nutter

The main issue with Laviolette was he tried to win firewagon hockey with mastodons on the blueline.

Berube has at least tried to tighten up the defense. Unfortunately, it's gotten really sloppy.

Any coach who wins will last. These skilled forwards need to start being held accountable for their mistakes, rather than the Downies, Gustafssons and Meszaroses.

The main issue with Laviolette was he tried to win firewagon hockey with mastodons on the blueline.

Berube has at least tried to tighten up the defense. Unfortunately, it's gotten really sloppy.

Any coach who wins will last. These skilled forwards need to start being held accountable for their mistakes, rather than the Downies, Gustafssons and Meszaroses.
- Jsaquella

Not the thing with my post. I mean, lets say that Berube wants to bench a few of the higher paid players. Instead of just the lower tier guys you mentioned.

I have my doubts he would be allowed to do so, and if he was, how long he would last as a coach. Its win at all cost, at all times. Which is a double edged sword.

Not the thing with my post. I mean, lets say that Berube wants to bench a few of the higher paid players. Instead of just the lower tier guys you mentioned.

I have my doubts he would be allowed to do so, and if he was, how long he would last as a coach. Its win at all cost, at all times. Which is a double edged sword.
- flyer_nutter

If he's not allowed, then it really is Holmgren's fault, isn't it?

Nahhhh, Im not saying to do it.

Im saying if the situation was ever to arise, I used Giroux just as an example.
- flyer_nutter

Then maybe VL should see the press box, McGinn was mentioned back as a "fringe" player, but why is VL even playing?
If he's still injured, fine, put him on the DL, but, can no one see he brings nothing?

And no, thats not being bipolar, its being honest, if he turned it back on again, I would be right with it.

I couldn't see Schenn going to NY for MDZ clearly because if he turns it on & plays well, they helped the team they are battling in the division, wasn't going to happen in a tight race. (just my opinion)

If he's not allowed, then it really is Holmgren's fault, isn't it?
- Jsaquella

More so upper management, and the general philosophy but yes.

Not the thing with my post. I mean, lets say that Berube wants to bench a few of the higher paid players. Instead of just the lower tier guys you mentioned.

I have my doubts he would be allowed to do so, and if he was, how long he would last as a coach. Its win at all cost, at all times. Which is a double edged sword.
- flyer_nutter

it would be Homer's decision, no wait, but doesn't Homer have Snider, "looking over his shoulder"?

More so upper management, and the general philosophy but yes.
- flyer_nutter

But that's all supposition anyhow. We don't know, because they haven't had a coach try it since Ken Hitchcock.

I'm not saying to bench Giroux for a few weeks, but if he has a lazy backcheck, sit him for a period. That's all it should take. Guys aren't going to fix their game if they're playing 24 minutes a night.

Hartnell turned things around after he saw his ice time dip and got moved off the Giroux line. it wasn't because he was a better fit with Schenn & Simmonds, it's because he started playing the kind of game he needs to play to be successful-going to the net, getting under opponent's skin and wreaking havoc and chaos.

You're just blaming management and making accusations. They deserve some blame, but at some point the coach has to instill discipline and force guys to play better. Nobody will poop their pants when Luke Schenn is a healthy scratch, but if Giroux is sat for a whole period, that sends a far bigger message