they'd be 7th in the division and 13th in the conference
- -davies-

lol mannnnnn! I think the NHL and its owners see this now, and changes will probably be coming in the years ahead. So, 3-on-3 OT for 5 minutes? lol.

*rubs eyes*



- -davies-

I know the answer is "never," but how many points does Mark Streit have to score before people get off the narrative of "he doesn't score enough to justify his salary or his defensive play"?

Because just in case anyone was wondering, his 20 points is 33rd in the entire NATIONAL HOCKEY LEAGUE for defensemen, and is tied with Brian Campbell -- who makes more money than him, and is more than Dion Phaneuf, Slava Voynov and Tobias Enstrom, among others, who all make a fair amount of money themselves and aren't exactly Norris Trophy candidates.

Streit's productive enough for his salary. I know people hate it when narratives aren't true, but...it's true.
- AllInForFlyers

That's an extremely short-view of the situation... Streit's like a volatile mortgage-backed security... you might be able to make a dollar off him today, but he's almost assuredly going to drag you down tomorrow.

The short-term payoff is even in doubt... yes he's got 6G and 20P now... but he's been on the ice (and been the direct culprit) in a LOT of goals against. From my perspective, his net impact on the team has seemed to be pretty close to neutral so far... that's not good enough for $5.25M. And then you consider that it's all downhill from here as he gets older? Yikes.

But...but...plus/minus is a horrible statistic. UGH.
- AllInForFlyers

It's not a horrible statistic. You just have to understand why he's a minus or plus.

It came out a little worse than I thought. I'm just sick of arguing over Grossmann and Streit and who is more at fault.
- PhillySportsGuy

Yup. We're in the doldrums of the season.

Yup. We're in the doldrums of the season.
- wolfhounds

I've been a bit crabby lately. Perhaps the Flyers weekend didn't help.

That's an extremely short-view of the situation... Streit's like a volatile mortgage-backed security... you might be able to make a dollar off him today, but he's almost assuredly going to drag you down tomorrow.

The short-term payoff is even in doubt... yes he's got 6G and 20P now... but he's been on the ice (and been the direct culprit) in a LOT of goals against. From my perspective, his net impact on the team has seemed to be pretty close to neutral so far... that's not good enough for $5.25M. And then you consider that it's all downhill from here as he gets older? Yikes.
- Tomahawk

That was very well put.

It's not a horrible statistic. You just have to understand why he's a minus or plus.
- PhillySportsGuy

Yeah, he's not a minus because he's playing with forwards who can't score, against the toughest competition, with the toughest zone starts, with a reckless defensive partner, in front of of a goalie that can't stop the puck to save his life.

It's not a horrible statistic. You just have to understand why he's a minus or plus.
- PhillySportsGuy

All statistics can be skewed one way or another, a purely statistical analysis of someones play is a poor way to evaluate.

All statistics can be skewed one way or another, a purely statistical analysis of someones play is a poor way to evaluate.
- twotoekenn

If you dig deeper into statistics, you can find a better answer. Simply looking at +/- Isn't a realistic way to evaluate a player just like looking at goals isn't either.

That's an extremely short-view of the situation... Streit's like a volatile mortgage-backed security... you might be able to make a dollar off him today, but he's almost assuredly going to drag you down tomorrow.

The short-term payoff is even in doubt... yes he's got 6G and 20P now... but he's been on the ice (and been the direct culprit) in a LOT of goals against. From my perspective, his net impact on the team has seemed to be pretty close to neutral so far... that's not good enough for $5.25M. And then you consider that it's all downhill from here as he gets older? Yikes.
- Tomahawk

That's an awfully pessimistic view. I mean, he'll never be a bargain acquisition, and he's almost certainly going to decline through the course of his contract, but to say he's assuredly going to be a huge problem seems... iunno.

I'm not even a Mark Streit fan, I'm not going to spend a lot of time defending him here.

That was very well put.
- PhillySportsGuy

When I see Streit do something stupid now, I don't think, "god, I hate Mark Streit"... the only thing that's in my mind is, "jfc, this is the best he's ever going to look as a Flyer".

Exactly. We're just mad at times because he shows what he can do, and then can disappear for extended periods of time.
- Flyers_V88

Just about every player has stretches where they underperform for whatever reason...around here those players tend to fall out of favor pretty quickly, with the criticism ranging from, "xxxx really needs to get it going" to "he sucks, trade him for anything, now!" (usually more toward the latter).

I recall earlier this season, according to the peanut gallery, G sucked and just isn't that elite player, Jake was to be traded, Hartnell was to be given away for anything, B Schenn was a bust, Read just wasn't that player we thought, Simmonds past performance was a fluke and he was to be traded, Streit was a useless sieve, Mez was washed up, Timonen was done, Coburn was horrible and to be traded, L Schenn was a bust...then things changed, most of these players got it going and it's a different story, but now it's other guys that suck...Downie, Vinny, Rinaldo, Hall, Grossmann, Mez, Couturier...

Hockey players are human...it's not like a video game where a player always plays to his rating...players will have their slumps and their good runs...good teams get through times when players have tough stretches..other players pick it up and they're able to compete and win games despite this...as a fan, I'm usually pretty patient with good players who are slumping, as it usually turns around before too long...it's comical, and somewhat pathetic/frustrating to see how fickle some of the fans and members of the media are when it comes to this kind of thing.

That's an awfully pessimistic view. I mean, he'll never be a bargain acquisition, and he's almost certainly going to decline through the course of his contract, but to say he's assuredly going to be a huge problem seems... iunno.

I'm not even a Mark Streit fan, I'm not going to spend a lot of time defending him here.
- BulliesPhan87

That's an extremely short-view of the situation... Streit's like a volatile mortgage-backed security... you might be able to make a dollar off him today, but he's almost assuredly going to drag you down tomorrow.

The short-term payoff is even in doubt... yes he's got 6G and 20P now... but he's been on the ice (and been the direct culprit) in a LOT of goals against. From my perspective, his net impact on the team has seemed to be pretty close to neutral so far... that's not good enough for $5.25M. And then you consider that it's all downhill from here as he gets older? Yikes.
- Tomahawk

It's not a short-view -- it's how the guy is playing now. We can all project decline, but you can't be angry at the guy until you actually see the decline.

Neutral might be all he is, but until we have a more mobile and responsive defense, how do we know that Streit isn't capable of playing at a higher level? I think that if you pair him with a more mobile defenseman, Streit would look a little better -- again, it's tough to move the puck with our defense, as a whole, because of its lack of collective foot speed. It's not impossible, it's just tougher.

By definition, Coburn and Timonen are getting the toughest starts. But they're not hiding Streit -- though I acknowledge that would be best -- because he has to play 20 minutes a night on this team.

It came out a little worse than I thought. I'm just sick of arguing over Grossmann and Streit and who is more at fault.
- PhillySportsGuy

It's very obvious they are not well suited to play together.

If Streit gambles and gets caught, is Grossmann the guy we want defending the odd man rush or skating to catch up?

If Streit is going to play regular 5 on 5 minutes in a top 4 role then they better find a good two way guy with great skating wheels to play with him.

Team could use another guy like Coburn or better.

Sarah Baicker ‏@sbaickerCSN now

The Flyers have a mandatory full-team meeting in a bit, we're told.

Just about every player has stretches where they underperform for whatever reason...around here those players tend to fall out of favor pretty quickly, with the criticism ranging from, "xxxx really needs to get it going" to "he sucks, trade him for anything, now!" (usually more toward the latter).

I recall earlier this season, according to the peanut gallery, G sucked and just isn't that elite player, Jake was to be traded, Hartnell was to be given away for anything, B Schenn was a bust, Read just wasn't that player we thought, Simmonds past performance was a fluke and he was to be traded, Streit was a useless sieve, Mez was washed up, Timonen was done, Coburn was horrible and to be traded, L Schenn was a bust...then things changed, most of these players got it going and it's a different story, but now it's other guys that suck...Downie, Vinny, Rinaldo, Hall, Grossmann, Mez, Couturier...

Hockey players are human...it's not like a video game where a player always plays to his rating...players will have their slumps and their good runs...good teams get through times when players have tough stretches..other players pick it up and they're able to compete and win games despite this...as a fan, I'm usually pretty patient with good players who are slumping, as it usually turns around before too long...it's comical, and somewhat pathetic/frustrating to see how fickle some of the fans and members of the media are when it comes to this kind of thing.
- exlund

Well said. I think Hartnell takes some extra flak because of how awkward he can look out there sometimes. Especially if he is not producing, it looks worse lol. Whereas G, Jake, etc, are all fluid skaters and keep up with the pace, I find Hartnell to be goofy looking sometimes, but the man is playing damn well right now.

Lets just be thankful Hartnell isn't what David Clarkson is in Toronto... That contract and term looks like a death sentence in TO right now. I feel for Clarkson too, because I think he realizes he has been nothing but a disappointment so far this season, for the most part.

Sarah Baicker ‏@sbaickerCSN now

The Flyers have a mandatory full-team meeting in a bit, we're told.
- MBFlyerfan

Pronger is coming back...

It's not a short-view -- it's how the guy is playing now. We can all project decline, but you can't be angry at the guy until you actually see the decline.

Neutral might be all he is, but until we have a more mobile and responsive defense, how do we know that Streit isn't capable of playing at a higher level? I think that if you pair him with a more mobile defenseman, Streit would look a little better -- again, it's tough to move the puck with our defense, as a whole, because of its lack of collective foot speed. It's not impossible, it's just tougher.

By definition, Coburn and Timonen are getting the toughest starts. But they're not hiding Streit -- though I acknowledge that would be best -- because he has to play 20 minutes a night on this team.
- AllInForFlyers

Good point.

We're just going to give up goals, at times. That's just a fact.

But I'm more than willing to call a moratorium on Mark Streit discussion -- I really am. I can't control what other people post, obviously.

But it is frustrating when Nicklas Grossmann gives up a 2 on 1 or takes a holding penalty on a bad pinch, and the first comment made is, "Yeah, Grossmann was bad, but compared to Streit as his partner, well, you know."

Because to be honest, I don't know. I know that as a whole, the defense is sub-par.

When I see Streit do something stupid now, I don't think, "god, I hate Mark Streit"... the only thing that's in my mind is, "jfc, this is the best he's ever going to look as a Flyer".
- Tomahawk

(I'm probably missing a direct response to my post by replying to this one, so work with me)

There's where I don't really see eye to eye with the degree of pessimism over the guy. In your previous post, you said you feel he's been a neutral impact on the team up until now. I actually really agree with that assessment. But he arrived at that neutral impact with a really poopty start, from which he's recovered quite a bit.

To reiterate, I'm not a Mark Streit fan (nor am I particularly a hater). But his play has improved enough to recover from that poop start, I don't think it's unrealistic to think he can continue to improve his track record as a Flyer, and perhaps maintain some degree of this good play. I think I'd equate it to an auto loan taken out to buy an ok condition older used car, that maybe you got a year too long on the loan, with a not killer but a bit less than favorable interest rate.

It's not a short-view -- it's how the guy is playing now. We can all project decline, but you can't be angry at the guy until you actually see the decline.

Neutral might be all he is, but until we have a more mobile and responsive defense, how do we know that Streit isn't capable of playing at a higher level? I think that if you pair him with a more mobile defenseman, Streit would look a little better -- again, it's tough to move the puck with our defense, as a whole, because of its lack of collective foot speed. It's not impossible, it's just tougher.

By definition, Coburn and Timonen are getting the toughest starts. But they're not hiding Streit -- though I acknowledge that would be best -- because he has to play 20 minutes a night on this team.
- AllInForFlyers

I think the point is that hiding a defenseman on the third pair shouldn't cost $5M per year for 4 years.

Pronger is coming back...
- exlund

Don't even joke like that.

We're just going to give up goals, at times. That's just a fact.

But I'm more than willing to call a moratorium on Mark Streit discussion -- I really am. I can't control what other people post, obviously.

But it is frustrating when Nicklas Grossmann gives up a 2 on 1 or takes a holding penalty on a bad pinch, and the first comment made is, "Yeah, Grossmann was bad, but compared to Streit as his partner, well, you know."

Because to be honest, I don't know. I know that as a whole, the defense is sub-par.
- AllInForFlyers

I actually think Grossmann needs a rest... I don't think his body can take a full 82 game schedule like it once could. Especially after the concussions and knee injuries. I would not be opposed to resting him here and there and subbing Gus, or maybe even Gill in.