I haven't suggested trading Coburn at all, and I agree wholeheartedly that they need to make sure the price paid is an acceptable one.

The thing is, the Flyers have forward depth. They can spare a forward to add a vital need on the blue line. They are playing well right now. They can be playing better, and a better transitional defenseman will help, greatly.

As I have said, Byfuglien isn't my top choice. I just don't get why so many people seem to hate him.

My first choice would be to go after Christian Erhoff. Second would be Yandle. My third choice would be to target a kid like Rundblad, Gormley or Erixon. Fourth choice would be a guy like Byfuglien
- Jsaquella

Why would you go after busts and unproven commodities? I thought the point was to upgrade the blue line now while Giroux was in his prime

That's swell, except you're not getting PK Subban.

And let's face it, the +13 is playing in front of Carey Price and the -16 is playing in front of Red Light Pavelec
- Jsaquella

Thats not true. Subban plays in a much more structured, defensive system, but Byfuglien's poor plus/minus is also a reflection on his poor defensive play.

They traded for those guys because they have a non-stop supply of young, puck moving defenseman that keep coming through the system.

The Flyers don't have that.
- PhillySportsGuy

Agreed -- again, I don't pretend that's not an issue. I wish the answer to this problem was internal.

But I don't think it's too aggressive to think the Flyers could win the Eastern Conference, right now. This season.

The Pens will be there, and Boston's showing some weakness with Seidenberg out, but they have time to address it.

But who else out there truly scares you?

If you can honestly say you can win your conference because of how well you've been playing, then I think you owe it to yourself to give yourself a chance to win the entire thing.

Why would you go after busts and unproven commodities? I thought the point was to upgrade the blue line now while Giroux was in his prime
- PhillySportsGuy

None of them are busts. Granted they are unproven commodities, but they also have, IMO a better shot to develop into top pair, offensive defensemen than anything in the Flyers system. Runblad is sitting behind OEL & Yandle, two of the best offensive/transitional defensemen in hockey. Gormely is in the AHL behind them.

Erixon has bounced around, but he's also highly skilled and a very promising young player.

I haven't suggested trading Coburn at all, and I agree wholeheartedly that they need to make sure the price paid is an acceptable one.

The thing is, the Flyers have forward depth. They can spare a forward to add a vital need on the blue line. They are playing well right now. They can be playing better, and a better transitional defenseman will help, greatly.

As I have said, Byfuglien isn't my top choice. I just don't get why so many people seem to hate him.

My first choice would be to go after Christian Erhoff. Second would be Yandle. My third choice would be to target a kid like Rundblad, Gormley or Erixon. Fourth choice would be a guy like Byfuglien
- Jsaquella

Yeah, it was that ridiculous proposal earlier in the thread that started the insanity.

I'd take Buff on the team in a heartbeat...for the right price. But that's true for every trade out there.

Thats not true. Subban plays in a much more structured, defensive system, but Byfuglien's poor plus/minus is also a reflection on his poor defensive play.
- PhillySportsGuy

It is to an extent, but you're not going to seriously say that Ondrej Pavelec is remotely near as good as Carey Price, are you?

Part of his +/- is definitely his own poor play. But Subban's is greatly helped by his goalie and the solid defensive team he plays for. That's two huge advantages that Subban has over Byfuglien.

Agreed -- again, I don't pretend that's not an issue. I wish the answer to this problem was internal.

But I don't think it's too aggressive to think the Flyers could win the Eastern Conference, right now. This season.

The Pens will be there, and Boston's showing some weakness with Seidenberg out, but they have time to address it.

But who else out there truly scares you?

If you can honestly say you can win your conference because of how well you've been playing, then I think you owe it to yourself to give yourself a chance to win the entire thing.
- AllInForFlyers

What I'm saying is the Flyers cannot obtain a defenseman that will make a huge difference without parting with Couturier or B. Schenn.

It is to an extent, but you're not going to seriously say that Ondrej Pavelec is remotely near as good as Carey Price, are you?

Part of his +/- is definitely his own poor play. But Subban's is greatly helped by his goalie and the solid defensive team he plays for. That's two huge advantages that Subban has over Byfuglien.
- Jsaquella

I agree, but it's a big difference. We're not talking about Byfuglien being -5 and Subban being +5. We're talking about a gap of 29 goals

Yeah, it was that ridiculous proposal earlier in the thread that started the insanity.

I'd take Buff on the team in a heartbeat...for the right price. But that's true for every trade out there.
- wolfhounds

I didn't even see it, I just checked in and people were acting as if Byfuglien was this horrible mess of a player, who was never any good.

He is struggling right now. But his team is an absolute mess, and that's a factor in his performance. I look at Tocchet, when he was originally traded to Pittsburgh. He was a sulky, underperforming player that epitomized the horrible Flyers team he was captain of...and he got to Pittsburgh, played with Mario, and turned things around.

I'm all for changes of scenery, and Dustin Byfuglien might be the guy in the NHL with the biggest need for one of those.

What I'm saying is the Flyers cannot obtain a defenseman that will make a huge difference without parting with Couturier or B. Schenn.
- PhillySportsGuy

I'm...not as sure of that. You might not get Yandle, but I think the trade market's going to open up a little bit here.

I think the Flyers, if they think they can win the East...I would be surprised if they didn't do something bigger than currently appears possible.

It is to an extent, but you're not going to seriously say that Ondrej Pavelec is remotely near as good as Carey Price, are you?

Part of his +/- is definitely his own poor play. But Subban's is greatly helped by his goalie and the solid defensive team he plays for. That's two huge advantages that Subban has over Byfuglien.
- Jsaquella

Byfuglien has, by far, the worst +/- on his team. The next worst defenseman is Clitsome at -5.

I think Bogo has been used as the shutdown guy as well.

I'm...not as sure of that. You might not get Yandle, but I think the trade market's going to open up a little bit here.

I think the Flyers, if they think they can win the East...I would be surprised if they didn't do something bigger than currently appears possible.
- AllInForFlyers

His price may come down, but I still think Byfuglien will cost a lot and won't provide the team with a stable #1.

That's swell, except you're not getting PK Subban.

And let's face it, the +13 is playing in front of Carey Price and the -16 is playing in front of Red Light Pavelec
- Jsaquella

No doubt. PK is on a better team. He could also be a better defenseman. The question that is being begged, why, if PK is not available, would Buff be available yet again?

I'm happy the Flyers have recently retained their picks and assets, and I hope that continues to be the case unless a can't miss deal can be made.

I agree, but it's a big difference. We're not talking about Byfuglien being -5 and Subban being +5. We're talking about a gap of 29 goals
- PhillySportsGuy

Plus/minus is simply no way to judge a player. It just isn't.

Mark Streit's -1 -- and we all know that the weakness of his game means that him being only -1 isn't due to him becoming a better defenseman at age 35.

Here's the thing: We need SOMEBODY.
- AllInForFlyers

That mentality got us stuck with Bryzgalov and Streit. If the pickings are slim, I'd rather them just keep looking around until another sweet reclamation piece like Mason or Coburn becomes available.

Plus/minus is simply no way to judge a player. It just isn't.

Mark Streit's -1 -- and we all know that the weakness of his game means that him being only -1 isn't due to him becoming a better defenseman at age 35.
- AllInForFlyers

Byfuglien is -16! The next worst defenseman on his team is -5! I don't know what else you need to see to understand that he is a serious liability in his own end.

I agree, but it's a big difference. We're not talking about Byfuglien being -5 and Subban being +5. We're talking about a gap of 29 goals
- PhillySportsGuy

Winnipeg allows 2.94 GA per game. Montreal averages 2.29.

That's 3/4ths of a goal more per game, which means Montreal is a markedly better defensive team, with a markedly better goalie, than Winnipeg.

Also, Subban is an elite defenseman. He's probably one of the 4 or 5 best in the world. Byfuglien isn't. He's elite in terms of production form the blueline, but he's not in Subban's class all around...and would also cost a great deal less in trade AND contract, when Subban signs his new deal for $9mm or so this summer

I didn't even see it, I just checked in and people were acting as if Byfuglien was this horrible mess of a player, who was never any good.

He is struggling right now. But his team is an absolute mess, and that's a factor in his performance. I look at Tocchet, when he was originally traded to Pittsburgh. He was a sulky, underperforming player that epitomized the horrible Flyers team he was captain of...and he got to Pittsburgh, played with Mario, and turned things around.

I'm all for changes of scenery, and Dustin Byfuglien might be the guy in the NHL with the biggest need for one of those.
- Jsaquella

Page 5 if you want to cringe a bit.

You're Flyers' GM right now, who do you deal to get Buff?

Byfuglien is -16! The next worst defenseman on his team is -5! I don't know what else you need to see to understand that he is a serious liability in his own end.
- PhillySportsGuy

I'm sorry, but if you're using +/- without taking into account the overall defensive ability of the team and the quality of the goaltending, then it's a worthless stats to throw out there.

Matt Read is a -7. Scott Hartnell is a +5. That means that Hartnell is a far better defensive player than Read by the logic you re using.

Winnipeg allows 2.94 GA per game. Montreal averages 2.29.

That's 3/4ths of a goal more per game, which means Montreal is a markedly better defensive team, with a markedly better goalie, than Winnipeg.

Also, Subban is an elite defenseman. He's probably one of the 4 or 5 best in the world. Byfuglien isn't. He's elite in terms of production form the blueline, but he's not in Subban's class all around...and would also cost a great deal less in trade AND contract, when Subban signs his new deal for $9mm or so this summer
- Jsaquella

I wouldn't say Subban is top 5 in the world.

Just look at Byfuglien's +/- in regards to his team. It's the worst by a lot. He doesn't even draw the toughest match ups. He's on the ice a lot, so he inevitably matches up against some great players, but I would guess that the coaching staff finds ways to maximize his offense and hide his defensive deficiencies.

Page 5 if you want to cringe a bit.

You're Flyers' GM right now, who do you deal to get Buff?
- wolfhounds

Right now is hard, because I would try to use Read & Luke Schenn as the primary pieces and Read is hurt.

I'd be willing to include a guy like Brayden Schenn, but not in a one for one move. There'd have to be more pieces to justify my concerns over Byfuglien.

I'm sorry, but if you're using +/- without taking into account the overall defensive ability of the team and the quality of the goaltending, then it's a worthless stats to throw out there.

Matt Read is a -7. Scott Hartnell is a +5. That means that Hartnell is a far better defensive player than Read by the logic you re using.
- Jsaquella

Read matches up against the other team's top lines and faces several unfavorable situations. Hartnell is put in more favorable situations.

Byfuglien is not Winnipeg's shutdown guy. Bogo is.

That mentality got us stuck with Bryzgalov and Streit. If the pickings are slim, I'd rather them just keep looking around until another sweet reclamation piece like Mason or Coburn becomes available.
- Tomahawk

But there's multiple ways to skin a cat in this sport -- the draft-and-develop mentality only sounds good when it works....but it doesn't just as many times as it does, if not more.

Edmonton, Florida, the Isles back in last place in the division, Columbus...what's draft-and-develop ever gotten them?

If you say that doing it the way we've always done it hasn't won the Flyers a Stanley Cup, then I'll acknowledge that with grace. Because that is the truth.

But it was Eric Desjardins and John LeClair who came in and helped the Flyers get to the Cup finals in 1997, not some guys we drafted. It was Chris Pronger who helped us get there in 2010, with Coburn and Timonen and Meszaros and Sean O'Donnell -- not a single guy they drafted.

Draft-and-develop sounds great when you win. But it doesn't mean you will.

But there's multiple ways to skin a cat in this sport -- the draft-and-develop mentality only sounds good when it works....but it doesn't just as many times as it does, if not more.

Edmonton, Florida, the Isles back in last place in the division, Columbus...what's draft-and-develop ever gotten them?

If you say that doing it the way we've always done it hasn't won the Flyers a Stanley Cup, then I'll acknowledge that with grace. Because that is the truth.

But it was Eric Desjardins and John LeClair who came in and helped the Flyers get to the Cup finals in 1997, not some guys we drafted. It was Chris Pronger who helped us get there in 2010, with Coburn and Timonen and Meszaros and Sean O'Donnell -- not a single guy they drafted.

Draft-and-develop sounds great when you win. But it doesn't mean you will.
- AllInForFlyers

The Flyers have proven to be good drafters. Those teams have not. If they get first round picks, they tend to hit on most of them.

I wouldn't say Subban is top 5 in the world.

Just look at Byfuglien's +/- in regards to his team. It's the worst by a lot. He doesn't even draw the toughest match ups. He's on the ice a lot, so he inevitably matches up against some great players, but I would guess that the coaching staff finds ways to maximize his offense and hide his defensive deficiencies.
- PhillySportsGuy

That's the problem, his coaching staff isn't doing that.

Byfuglien does indeed draw the toughest matchups of any Jets defenseman, based on Corsi QOC, along with Tobias Enstrom. He's also right near 50% in O-zone starts, so he's not exactly being sheltered and given mostly offensive zone chances.