Similarly to how phaneuf's plus minus can somehow be attributed to the team over him personally.
- rangerdanger94

Except phaneuf teammates have crappy +/-

Similarly to how phaneuf's plus minus can somehow be attributed to the team over him personally.
- rangerdanger94

Some of it, maybe. But the thing is that his plus minus is so much higher than the others. And there's also something called actually watching the games. It's been Phaneuf on Crosby, Ovechkin, Tavares, Stamkos, etc, and he has done a heck of a job on them.

Similarly to how phaneuf's plus minus can somehow be attributed to the team over him personally.
- rangerdanger94

If the entire team was a strong +/- I could agree.

The entire team is, in fact, a defensive nightmare. So I don't think they are helping him any.

... Just admit it, after hearing how over-rated he is for a couple years now, the pendulum may have actually swung around to the point where he is now underrated.

Does webers terrible plus minus reflect webers ability to defend? What about ben facking lovejoys amazing plus minus?
- rangerdanger94

Answer to the Weber question, Trotz is an idiot with his pairings and how he allocates ice time. Both Josi and Jones drag Weber down. That said, I don't think Weber is/was ever as amazing as everyone else felt when he was playing with Suter.

As for Lovejoy, he's an ideal #4 d-man, I've been saying on these boards for a long time he reminds me of Willie Mitchell/Keith Carney. Is he as good as his +/- is? No, the entire top 6 has the same +/- as him where noone on the Leafs is even close to Phaneuf. Let me reiterate, Lovejoy is a decent d-man who has all the attributes of the guys I mentioned, but he's benefiting from Koivu, Cogliano and Bonino becoming the modern day version of Sami Pahlson, Todd Marchant and Andy Mcdonald, and a top line of Getzlaf and Perry.

Does webers terrible plus minus reflect webers ability to defend? What about ben facking lovejoys amazing plus minus?
- rangerdanger94

So you agree. Cool.

Yeah I agree. If orr or McLaren aren't going to punch someone there is no use for them.I just cannot believe the difference in play compared to last year. Not.the results or stats, but the complete shift from being a physical rough team to play against with the best pk in the league to.... well...this. Carlyle needs to stop worrying about this cycle game bullpoop and play to our strengths. That, or get nonis to trade 90% of the roster for guys who can.
- walshyleafsfan

I would settle for effort.

I think the Leafs are probably a top-10 team in this league, when they work. Their roster, even their defense, does not support them being this bad.

They lose 1 on 1 puck battles all game, every game, against every team and that leads directly to huge SOG disparity, and ultimately, losses.

Remember what I said before about quality of competition? That's why I'm even MORE impressed with Phaneuf.
- dionschenn

So basically you use whatever stats are convenient and disregard or give less credit to ones that go against your point. High qoc, but terrible corsi. High plus minus, but terrible on the pk. But the terrible stats are due to the team while the good stats are due to dion himself? Do you forget dion's lockdown defense in the final 10 minutes of game 7?

OK time to go let a bunch of Sensei's, 25 years younger than me, give me a coronary at karate class

Have a good rest of the afternoon.

If the entire team was a strong +/- I could agree.

The entire team is, in fact, a defensive nightmare. So I don't think they are helping him any.

... Just admit it, after hearing how over-rated he is for a couple years now, the pendulum may have actually swung around to the point where he is now underrated.
- Aetherial

Thats the thing I don't get.he is always called overrated.other than a handful of Leafs fans, who the (frank) rates him? Fans of other teams don't and the media certainly doesn't

Sure would be cool if Kadri got a hat trick tonight.

So basically you use whatever stats are convenient and disregard or give less credit to ones that go against your point. High qoc, but terrible corsi. High plus minus, but terrible on the pk. But the terrible stats are due to the team while the good stats are due to dion himself? Do you forget dion's lockdown defense in the final 10 minutes of game 7?
- rangerdanger94

Do you really believe any of us forget the final 10 minutes of game 7? Dion was on the ice, but the entire team (except the Kadri/Kessel/JVR line) shat the bed in those final 10 minutes. WHat happened goes beyond any one player.

I would settle for effort.

I think the Leafs are probably a top-10 team in this league, when they work. Their roster, even their defense, does not support them being this bad.

They lose 1 on 1 puck battles all game, every game, against every team and that leads directly to huge SOG disparity, and ultimately, losses.
- Aetherial

Defence. Phaneuf/Gunnarsson are having great years playing against the top lines yet it is still the biggest issue by a mile. That means our 3-6th Dmen have had to be god awful. And they absolutely have been. Gardiner/Reilly shouldn't even be considered Dmen on most nights. Ranger/Franson have also struggled in their own end. Hopefully Gleason will help but those 4 need to figure it out. Keeping Reilly was a big mistake.

I need one.

It is pretty funny to play devil's advocate, when I was arguing a couple weeks ago against signing Phaneuf
- Aetherial

that's all me

OK time to go let a bunch of Sensei's, 25 years younger than me, give me a coronary at karate class

Have a good rest of the afternoon.
- Aetherial

sensei ni rei, deshi

So basically you use whatever stats are convenient and disregard or give less credit to ones that go against your point. High qoc, but terrible corsi. High plus minus, but terrible on the pk. But the terrible stats are due to the team while the good stats are due to dion himself? Do you forget dion's lockdown defense in the final 10 minutes of game 7?
- rangerdanger94

i deal with this daily

what you say is 100% true.. people will pick and choose what stats give strength to their own specific argument

for instance.. i think phaneuf would be a fine number 2 or number 3 guy.. but i dont think he is a 7mill guy. he simply isnt in that echelon of defenders

I would settle for effort.

I think the Leafs are probably a top-10 team in this league, when they work. Their roster, even their defense, does not support them being this bad.

They lose 1 on 1 puck battles all game, every game, against every team and that leads directly to huge SOG disparity, and ultimately, losses.
- Aetherial

spoken like a true Leafs fan.
(Don't know how to bold on my phone, but in response to settle for effort).
the nightmare that unites us all

Except phaneuf teammates have crappy +/-
- Yeti1181

interesting how his plus/minus flattened out once kessel's line started slumping hmm?

he is the benificiary, not the reason.

DION PHANEUF DA DA DA DA DA.

dion PHANEUF da DA DA DADA

DIon PhanEUF Da da dadada dadada da da dada daaaaaa

HE'S THE BEST BRO. IF HE HAD DA TOP 2 PARTNERZ INSTEAD OF GUNNERSUCK HE'D BE DA BEST.

He needs an abundance of bad female doges (DRAKE quote). He looks like he's lost his pride. DID HE FORGET WHO HE IS?

ITS NOT A BIRD.. ITS NOT A PLANE. ITS PHANEUF!

HE CAN HIT, SCORE, SHOOT HARD. But he's a little girl mentally.

Da BEST.

So basically you use whatever stats are convenient and disregard or give less credit to ones that go against your point. High qoc, but terrible corsi. High plus minus, but terrible on the pk. But the terrible stats are due to the team while the good stats are due to dion himself? Do you forget dion's lockdown defense in the final 10 minutes of game 7?
- rangerdanger94

What? Did you miss the part where I said I didnt look into Franson/Fraser's amazing plus minus last year because of who they played against? Did you miss the part where I torched Reilly for his horrid plus minus against low end players? Did you miss when I said Phaneuf needs to be better on the PK but show me how many of the SH goals he has actually been on for?

All I have said is that he has done an incredible job this season against top end talent. Prove me wrong.

DION PHANEUF DA DA DA DA DA.

dion PHANEUF da DA DA DADA

DIon PhanEUF Da da dadada dadada da da dada daaaaaa

HE'S THE BEST BRO. IF HE HAD DA TOP 2 PARTNERZ INSTEAD OF GUNNERSUCK HE'D BE DA BEST.

He needs an abundance of bad female doges (DRAKE quote). He looks like he's lost his pride. DID HE FORGET WHO HE IS?

ITS NOT A BIRD.. ITS NOT A PLANE. ITS PHANEUF!

HE CAN HIT, SCORE, SHOOT HARD. But he's a little girl mentally.

Da BEST.
- CanadianBodmon

You and Mr. Ford have another *lunch* together?

Carolina Buff game cancelled due to weather.

You and Mr. Ford have another *lunch* together?
- Woderwick

No, I have enough to eat at home.

how about before you start chirpiing you thinks things through?

i explained it for you since you werent picking it up on your own
- Dozzer

geez, that's not condescending at all.

are you sure you're still a ref?

No, I have enough to eat at home.
- CanadianBodmon

Remember what I said before about quality of competition? That's why I'm even MORE impressed with Phaneuf.
- dionschenn

Phaneuf haters will never give him credit. Guy is a great defenseman and plays against the best every night. And all this he always gets beat to the outside is a bunch of crap IMO. He shuts the door on many who try to bear him out there, and if he knows he's gunna get beat he at least pushes the opposition so far outside they take a poor quality shot. Might not be top 6 defenseman in Canada but definitely top 12 which makes him around 15th overall in the league.