I just think stats can be misleading. Phaneuf fcked up in game 7 and coughed up a 2 goal lead with under 2 minutes to go last year, dont see that on the stats. The leafs give up the most shots on goal in the league, phaneuf probably has something to do with that.

By your logic, kunitz is a better player than kessel. The numbers say so. But when you watch the 2 play, you see things stats cant explain.
- rangerdanger94

*sigh*

Yeah, I am definitely suggesting that Kunitz is better than Kessel because I completely forgot that Crosby centers Kunitz and Bozak centers Kessel.




Good lord.

I'd say that's the case for every #1 and #2 dmen, on every NHL team.
- Pecafan Fan

Bingo

I just think stats can be misleading. Phaneuf fcked up in game 7 and coughed up a 2 goal lead with under 2 minutes to go last year, dont see that on the stats. The leafs give up the most shots on goal in the league, phaneuf probably has something to do with that.

By your logic, kunitz is a better player than kessel. The numbers say so. But when you watch the 2 play, you see things stats cant explain.
- rangerdanger94

Like Phaneuf's ability to shutdown Crosby?

*sigh*

Yeah, I am definitely suggesting that Kunitz is better than Kessel because I completely forgot that Crosby centers Kunitz and Bozak centers Kessel.




Good lord.
- Aetherial

have a beer buddy.

Also, in terms of advanced statistics, phaneuf has a really high quality if competition but corsi is -21.45. I dont know what that means but I dont think its good? We all know plus minus is a pretty terrible statistic...probably the worst in pro sports.
- rangerdanger94

... if I was playing 20+ minutes against the top lines from every other team, and I was surrounded by an entire team unable or unwilling to play Defense...

I would expect my Corsi to be brutal.

I would find my +/- to be a miracle.

have a beer buddy.
- TheTaoOfSemenko

I need one.

It is pretty funny to play devil's advocate, when I was arguing a couple weeks ago against signing Phaneuf

Ohh right, perhaps i should throw some plus/minus statistics around to substantiate my argument.................because clearly you possess more knowledge then team Canada's management team
- Whiskey-Tango

+/- was a very popular state when discussing the Kessel v Seguin trade a few years back.a fave of sens, habs and nucks fans if memory serves

Can we just agree that Phaneuf is the least of the problems with the Leafs defensive play this season? So how about that game tonight.

Like Phaneuf's ability to shutdown Crosby?
- mykokes

Yea. He can shut down the best, but he has breakdowns that other top defenders dont have. Its his.consistency.

highly doubt that happens. I still dont see how we need orr and mclaren in the lineup if we have fraser, gleason in there
- Mapleleafs_91

What exactly are Orr and MacLaren doing in the lineup at all?

What roles are they filling?

How come questions like this are not being asked by people in the LEafs organization. Instead, we just turn in passive, brutal efforts where we are the softest and least hard working team in the league.

Jeeze some people are grumpy today.

Dion is great. Not Team Canada. But he's up there. Everyone stop argu(e)ing over someone who is clearly a good defender, a captain of a team, and is a + player.

And for the Dion haters. You're trying to chirp at a player who is top 15-40 IN THE (frank)ING WORLD.

He'd laugh in your face. Smash you on ice. Then laugh all the way to the bank.

What exactly are Orr and MacLaren doing in the lineup at all?

What roles are they filling?

How come questions like this are not being asked by people in the LEafs organization. Instead, we just turn in passive, brutal efforts where we are the softest and least hard working team in the league.
- Aetherial

I've been asking for a long time. If I got to see Randy at Swiss Chalet you better believe I'd be asking him too.

Can we just agree that Phaneuf is the least of the problems with the Leafs defensive play this season? So how about that game tonight.
- mykokes

The Islanders played last night and had an 'emotional' win (whatever that means...).

Hopefully, it means that after our pitiful game on Saturday that we come out flying and burry them....

But yes Ii totally agree with you, Phaneuf is the least of our problems. He has had a good year and is playing solid. There are way BIGGER issues on this team.... ala CLARKSON? Who the hell are we going to get to take that contract on????

Ohh right, perhaps i should throw some plus/minus statistics around to substantiate my argument.................because clearly you possess more knowledge then team Canada's management team
- Whiskey-Tango

I have a better idea Einstein, how about you argue with *something* another than typical "Canucks fan on a Leafs thread" BS, oh and emoticons also.

... if I was playing 20+ minutes against the top lines from every other team, and I was surrounded by an entire team unable or unwilling to play Defense...

I would expect my Corsi to be brutal.

I would find my +/- to be a miracle.
- Aetherial

Okay but that shows how well he does against them. Who cares that he plays 25 minutes a game against the best players if hes pretty terrible doing it? Plus minus is ridiculous. suter is a +1, mcdonagh is a -4, weber is a -13. Ben lovejoy is a +19. What the hell do those stats really say aboutthose players at all?

I have this bad feeling about tonight's game. Gleason should not be playing top pair minutes based on his play this year and Fraser's regressed. I hope I'm wrong.

The fact that there's even a discussion about him being on Team Canada aka THE BEST TEAM ON THE PLANET is evidence of something.

He's a top elite defenseman. And I'm sure if he wasn't P**** whipped he'd be even better. He'd have his balls back. The collage of the Dion faces is actually with his manhood.
http://www.highlighthub.c...oads/2013/10/phaneuf1.jpg

I wonder when he started dating Elisha

Jeeze some people are grumpy today.

Dion is great. Not Team Canada. But he's up there. Everyone stop argu(e)ing over someone who is clearly a good defender, a captain of a team, and is a + player.
And for the Dion haters. You're trying to chirp at a player who is top 15-40 IN THE (frank)ING WORLD.

He'd laugh in your face. Smash you on ice. Then laugh all the way to the bank.
- CanadianBodmon

He is a top pairing D.

I think his game would be hurt by the bigger ice surface. It would be just *that* much more room where the best players in the league could expose him going wide.

It doesn't take away from the quality of player he is. It also doesn't suddenly make all the crap said about him become magically true. It doesn't invalidate the numbers so far this year.

Yea. He can shut down the best, but he has breakdowns that other top defenders dont have. Its his.consistency.
- rangerdanger94

Subban, JBo, Vlasic, etc have never broken down?

Dions been pretty damn consistent this year.

*sigh*

Yeah, I am definitely suggesting that Kunitz is better than Kessel because I completely forgot that Crosby centers Kunitz and Bozak centers Kessel.




Good lord.
- Aetherial

Anecdotal evidence vs. numbers.

The numbers say kunitz is a better player than kessel.

He is a top pairing D.

I think his game would be hurt by the bigger ice surface. It would be just *that* much more room where the best players in the league could expose him going wide.

It doesn't take away from the quality of player he is. It also doesn't suddenly make all the crap said about him become magically true. It doesn't invalidate the numbers so far this year.
- Aetherial

I agree. His game is made for NHL ice. Especially now a days.
No arguing you here

Subban, JBo, Vlasic, etc have never broken down?

Dions been pretty damn consistent this year.
- dionschenn

Dions a great top pairimg defenseman. Im not saying hes not. Im just playing devils advocate cuz im bored at work.

Okay but that shows how well he does against them. Who cares that he plays 25 minutes a game against the best players if hes pretty terrible doing it? Plus minus is ridiculous. suter is a +1, mcdonagh is a -4, weber is a -13. Ben lovejoy is a +19. What the hell do those stats really say aboutthose players at all?
- rangerdanger94

I think his point is comparing dion's plus/minus against the rest of the leafs players it is quite astounding. Its not like the Bruins where everyone is plus 10 or more (kinda thing). Pretty much everyone on the leafs are minus a poopload, yet somehow, dion and gunner have a healthy plus number.

Okay but that shows how well he does against them. Who cares that he plays 25 minutes a game against the best players if hes pretty terrible doing it? Plus minus is ridiculous. suter is a +1, mcdonagh is a -4, weber is a -13. Ben lovejoy is a +19. What the hell do those stats really say aboutthose players at all?
- rangerdanger94

I don't know what exactly is up with the other players (personally, I think Weber is overrated. Suter was the better player in NAS)

All I know is that, he plays huge minutes, against top competition, and yet, the Leafs still score more with him on the ice than are scored against.

So, somehow, I find it hard to support some people's negative opinions. Even if I share some of them.

I am trying to argue impartially for a change, because I don't like Phaneuf, and never have.

I have this bad feeling about tonight's game. Gleason should not be playing top pair minutes based on his play this year and Fraser's regressed. I hope I'm wrong.
- Frank1971

Hope so too.

They have both been hurt and need to get back up to game speed.

Let's give them some time to get their legs before we rite them off or start hating on them.

5-2 Leafs!