i wouldnt say the toughest competition argument is anything special

because that means he also plays with the forwards who focus on shutting guys down.. the mcclements, etc.

dont think that doesnt help him
- Dozzer

Uh, wait a minute...

he also has the advantage of being on the ice when kessel's line is

carlyle plays him in gimmie situations as well.. no one mentions that

- Dozzer

Pretty tough for me to debate against those two quotes at the same time don't you think?

Oh f's up.....he does all the time.
But hes a good dman...not a great one....but a decent one.
- Fakepartofme

Ok decent for sure

Best we gotzzzzz too

Looking forward to Pha9/Gleason tonight....




Mark Fraser is also going to want to step up and prove he still belongs.

The Leafs are icing a scary team tonight....probably win just because it looks like they shouldn't.....at least Ranger won't be playing.....sadly that means Fraser will lol catch 22....oh well who doesn't love a good train wreck!
- BlowMonkey

so fraser in is confirmed 100%?

or is this just based off of practice yesterday?

no gonchar, semin, yakopov, volchenkov, kulikov for russia

and also this.
- Fakepartofme

How about you use Dozzer's other quote, the one where he benefits from playing with Kessel.

If all top-minutes Dmen play against the same competition, how come people track this stuff?

How come you just ignore it, and make claims that are NOT supported by the people who track this kind of stuff.

Do you have anything here besides your opinion?

Looking forward to Pha9/Gleason tonight....




Mark Fraser is also going to want to step up and prove he still belongs.
- Byfuglien Ate Me

highly doubt that happens. I still dont see how we need orr and mclaren in the lineup if we have fraser, gleason in there

no gonchar, semin, yakopov, volchenkov, kulikov for russia
- Mapleleafs_91

gonna be shooting blanks

Uh, wait a minute...





Pretty tough for me to debate against those two quotes at the same time don't you think?
- Aetherial

exactly.. when kessel's line is out he is put out there for his offense... which is typically against other teams shut down lines (which arent huge threats to score)

when the opposition ices their scoring lines.. phaneuf is trotted out there with the leafs shut down lines

he gets the best of both worlds.

OK, I am done, hate on Phaneuf all you want, for whatever reasons you want.

I don't like him either. I didn't want the Leafs to re-sign him, and I am glad he is not on team Canada, because then we would just have one more excuse because Dion is "tired" again.

So have at it.

phaneuf is overpaid by about 2 million per
- Dozzer

Value contracts are all but gone now... overpaid doesn't exist. It's called free market.

How about you use Dozzer's other quote, the one where he benefits from playing with Kessel.

If all top-minutes Dmen play against the same competition, how come people track this stuff?

How come you just ignore it, and make claims that are NOT supported by the people who track this kind of stuff.

Do you have anything here besides your opinion?
- Aetherial

how about before you start chirpiing you thinks things through?

i explained it for you since you werent picking it up on your own

exactly.. when kessel's line is out he is put out there for his offense... which is typically against other teams shut down lines (which arent huge threats to score)

when the opposition ices their scoring lines.. phaneuf is trotted out there with the leafs shut down lines

he gets the best of both worlds.
- Dozzer

I'd say that's the case for every #1 and #2 dmen, on every NHL team.

so fraser in is confirmed 100%?

or is this just based off of practice yesterday?
- Dozzer

just based off practice....which is often who plays but nothing confirmed yet that I've seen.....I'd actually prefer Ranger over Fraser....which is (frank)ing sad.

gonna be shooting blanks
- DoubleDown

Many teams leaving out certain players puzzles me

exactly.. when kessel's line is out he is put out there for his offense... which is typically against other teams shut down lines (which arent huge threats to score)

when the opposition ices their scoring lines.. phaneuf is trotted out there with the leafs shut down lines

he gets the best of both worlds.
- Dozzer

I thought Franson was the one who was sheltered? Bruce, you're going in circles here.

exactly.. when kessel's line is out he is put out there for his offense... which is typically against other teams shut down lines (which arent huge threats to score)

when the opposition ices their scoring lines.. phaneuf is trotted out there with the leafs shut down lines

he gets the best of both worlds.
- Dozzer

So, I argue with stats.

You argue with this concoction of brutal logic that he somehow benefits because he plays with Kessel AND he plays with the checking line.

So, no matter where he plays, he benefits, and the stats are therefore lieing.

Ok, I understand now.

highly doubt that happens. I still dont see how we need orr and mclaren in the lineup if we have fraser, gleason in there
- Mapleleafs_91

I have my doubts as well, but I'm thinking he is going to be motivated to at least play well enough to be picked up off the waiver wire if he can't find his game with Franson again. He played well for us last year and ended with a crack in his skull, the guy is all heart, don't want to just see him tossed!

My honest answer would be I don't know. My reasons are that I am not familiar with how well the Rangers team as a whole plays Team Defense. I am not familiar with MacDonaugh (sp?) partners? I am not aware of his stats?

If the question was would I trade Dion for Mcdonagh then yes, I would. Believe it or not, I am not a fan of Phaneuf and never have been.

I am just sick of people just ignoring any sort of factual counter arguement and just expecting that their anecdotal evidence which is probably pulled right out of their ass, is somehow the truth.
- Aetherial

I just think stats can be misleading. Phaneuf fcked up in game 7 and coughed up a 2 goal lead with under 2 minutes to go last year, dont see that on the stats. The leafs give up the most shots on goal in the league, phaneuf probably has something to do with that.

By your logic, kunitz is a better player than kessel. The numbers say so. But when you watch the 2 play, you see things stats cant explain.

OK, I am done, hate on Phaneuf all you want, for whatever reasons you want.

I don't like him either. I didn't want the Leafs to re-sign him, and I am glad he is not on team Canada, because then we would just have one more excuse because Dion is "tired" again.

So have at it.
- Aetherial

you're awesome

so you agree with us but you decided to argue the opposing point for .... kicks?

how about before you start chirpiing you thinks things through?

i explained it for you since you werent picking it up on your own
- Dozzer

I can't quite believe you actually just typed that.

You got caught with two ridiculous quotes that contradict each other, and neither is correct. You cook up some arguement to explain it away by basically suggesting that all of Dion's minutes are sheltering him. You continue to ignore the FACTs of his QoC and his +/- and his total ice time.

...

and then you tell ME to think things through?

you're awesome

so you agree with us but you decided to argue the opposing point for .... kicks?
- Dozzer

I don't agree with your reasoning or your reasons for not liking him.

I just don't like him. I think he is a legitimate 1st pairing Dman though.

My arguement for wanting him gone was because I don't see how the Leafs ever improve with more of the same.

... what started me off was the usual Canucks fan coming here and making a remark that is anti-Leafs, and not supported by anything factual.

So, I argue with stats.

You argue with this concoction of brutal logic that he somehow benefits because he plays with Kessel AND he plays with the checking line.

So, no matter where he plays, he benefits, and the stats are therefore lieing.

Ok, I understand now.
- Aetherial

my point is that depending on the situation phaneuf is given the appropriate forwards

if dion's role is to shut down a line.. kessel isnt out there.. mcclement is.. so dion benefits from having a defensive group of forwards out there.

but when its an offensive opportunity he's out there benefiting from the offense kessel and co. generate.

i never once said sheltered.. but he benefits from carlyle's line matching. thats all i am trying to get at.

Also, in terms of advanced statistics, phaneuf has a really high quality if competition but corsi is -21.45. I dont know what that means but I dont think its good? We all know plus minus is a pretty terrible statistic...probably the worst in pro sports.

I thought Franson was the one who was sheltered? Bruce, you're going in circles here.
- mykokes

when did i say sheltered?

i am saying you wont find dion out there against an opposition top line with say kadri raymond and lupul

unless someone (frank)ed up somewhere that is.