Damn beat my edit! As far as the bold goes that in itself is a knock on Snow as a GM. Our blue line should've never been thin enough where losing a top 4 D man would have this much of an effect. I know Vis is more to this team so we don't need to get into that but that in itself tells you there was something wrong with our offseason.
- Cptmjl

Yep...although not many teams survive the loss of their number one dman unless they're an elite team. There isn't alot of defensive depth around the league as a whole. I'll use the Flyers as my example. They go to the Stanley Cup with Pronger...lose him to a concussion are suddenly a fringe playoff team at best. And that's a deeper team than us.

Lose Visnovsky and then throw in Strait and this team is just brutal. Then add Cappy's 'coaching'....too much.

15 games with the Isles, 5 goals, 11 pts. Not bad. Besides, my recollection of Moulson away from the puck is that he was pretty miserable.
- Jethro09

No not bad but I just don't want any of us pretending that Vanek is leaps and bounds better than Moulson because he isn't. Moulson had 6 goals in 11 games before being traded.

Actually he isn't better than Moulson in the neutral zone statistically and he turns the puck over a lot more. He's a better player than moulson but not much better, not two draft picks better and not $2-$3 mill a year better
- Isles316

I'm too lazy to look this up...link?

Actually he isn't better than Moulson in the neutral zone statistically and he turns the puck over a lot more. He's a better player than moulson but not much better, not two draft picks better and not $2-$3 mill a year better
- Isles316

Just watch Vanek play. If you can't see the difference between the two players then we'll agree to disagree. My opinion will never change. Not trying to come off like a douche but I have a hard time understanding how people even debate this?

Yep...although not many teams survive the loss of their number one dman unless they're an elite team. There isn't alot of defensive depth around the league as a whole. I'll use the Flyers as my example. They go to the Stanley Cup with Pronger...lose him to a concussion are suddenly a fringe playoff team at best. And that's a deeper team than us.

Lose Visnovsky and then throw in Strait and this team is just brutal. Then add Cappy's 'coaching'....too much.
- keaner17

Oh no you didn't?

I think Vanek is a fish out of water with this team right now. This is not a two-way hockey team right now which means players who aren't strong backcheckers like Vanek or Moulson become more glaring in their defensive shortcomings. I also think Vanek is learning (this is my whining portion) that the Isles get a lot less respect from officials than most other teams. He's constantly getting held, dragged down etc and you can clearly see his frustration is starting to get the better of him. This is a rough stretch for the team and Vanek especially. Eventually things may turn around and he'll score in bunches but the damage is likely done.
- keaner17

Vanek has drawn two penalties this year and last year combined. Two.

Vanek has drawn two penalties this year and last year combined. Two.
- Isles316

? He just drew one the other night.....
That stat seems a bit questionable....

Just watch Vanek play. If you can't see the difference between the two players then we'll agree to disagree. My opinion will never change. Not trying to come off like a douche but I have a hard time understanding how people even debate this?
- Cptmjl

I think Vanek is incredibly lazy without the puck. Again, I'm not saying he isn't better than Moulson overall. He does create more space but I'm still underwhelmed with him.

As for the neutral zone thing, the advanced stats guy on twitter yesterday had moulson and Vanek neutral zone play as even the last two seasons. Moulson a touch better this year but but pretty horrible

? He just drew one the other night.....
That stat seems a bit questionable....
- keaner17

It's a fact. He's among worst in league in penalty plus minus.

? He just drew one the other night.....
That stat seems a bit questionable....
- keaner17

http://sports.yahoo.com/b...teams-222932313--nhl.html

I think Vanek is incredibly lazy without the puck. Again, I'm not saying he isn't better than Moulson overall. He does create more space but I'm still underwhelmed with him.

As for the neutral zone thing, the advanced stats guy on twitter yesterday had moulson and Vanek neutral zone play as even the last two seasons. Moulson a touch better this year but but pretty horrible
- Isles316

I'll go by from what I see. I've literally seen Moulson skate away from the play in the neutral zone when he was needed. The guy is NOT a good player. Maybe he'll change his ways in Buffalo? Wish him all the best but I'm happy we are not handcuffed to him being on our first line for the next five years which is exactly what the alternitive would've been.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/penalty-plus-minus-nhl-forwards-helping-hurting-teams-222932313--nhl.html
- Isles316

If anything, this makes me wonder how accurate whoever's counting these stats are. Vanek just drew a penalty against Tampa Bay. I seriously have a hard time believing that he didn't draw a single penalty all last season.

They're also claiming Spezza has only drawn one penalty this year??

If anything, this makes me wonder how accurate whoever's counting these stats are. Vanek just drew a penalty against Tampa Bay. I seriously have a hard time believing that he didn't draw a single penalty all last season.

They're also claiming Spezza has only drawn one penalty this year??
- keaner17

After watching him in that Pens game it's a possibility. Letang could've taken out a 45 and shot him in the chest and he would'nt have drew a penalty

If anything, this makes me wonder how accurate whoever's counting these stats are. Vanek just drew a penalty against Tampa Bay. I seriously have a hard time believing that he didn't draw a single penalty all last season.

They're also claiming Spezza has only drawn one penalty this year??
- keaner17

Sounds reliable to me?

After watching him in that Pens game it's a possibility. Letang could've taken out a 45 and shot him in the chest and he would'nt have drew a penalty
- Cptmjl

I thought that had more to do with this:

In other news...the Sabres are 3-10 since Nolan took over....

Streaky PA...
PA Parenteau had 3 assists the other night...good thing too.
Prior to that his line looked like this
31 gp 9g 9 assists 18pts...

He now stands at 33gp 9g 12assists 21pts
over 82 games, that's 22 goals 22 assists...not bad..but not top line good, that's for sure.

Moulson:
11gp w/ Isles 6goals
21gp w/ Buffalo 6goals
Over an 82game season, those 21 games project Moulson to 23 goals....


Of course Vanek ain't exactly lighting it up right now...
w/ the Isles:
19gp 6goals which projects him to 26goals

In other news...the Sabres are 3-10 since Nolan took over....
- keaner17

Better than the isles' record during that same time. Pathetic.

Actually he isn't better than Moulson in the neutral zone statistically and he turns the puck over a lot more. He's a better player than moulson but not much better, not two draft picks better and not $2-$3 mill a year better
- Isles316

They may be separated by that amount of salary this season (actually closer to $4M), but do you really think their salaries are going to be much different come July? Moulson is in line for a huge raise, likely $6M and over per year, based on the market and what guys wth comparable and even weaker numbers are signing for last summer. Vanek isn't going to get a raise (or a significant one) from his $7.1M per he gets now. The difference in their salaries will be about $1M or so and yes, I think Vanek is $1M per year better than Moulson.

I thought that had more to do with this:

- keaner17

They may be separated by that amount of salary this season (actually closer to $4M), but do you really think their salaries are going to be much different come July? Moulson is in line for a huge raise, likely $6M and over per year, based on the market and what guys wth comparable and even weaker numbers are signing for last summer. Vanek isn't going to get a raise (or a significant one) from his $7.1M per he gets now. The difference in their salaries will be about $1M or so and yes, I think Vanek is $1M per year better than Moulson.
- Jethro09

Good way of putting it.

Then I don't get your point. Are you saying that the trade was bad because we didn't address areas of need? Because if so, nobody here will disagree with you. Are you saying that it's a bad trade because is the picks involved? Well, maybe it will be. But that depends.

Moulson was not being re-signed. He is likely looking at a Clarkson type deal or somewhere in that range. No way the Isles pay Moulson $6M per. You move him for Vanek, a far better player, along with a protected first and second. Truth is, you will be able to flip Vanek for a first, maybe a First and a mid level prospect or 3rd too if he doesn't re-sign (which I doubt he will). So, for the cost of a second rounder and a lower pick in the first round of a weak draft, you took a chance on obtaining and signing Vanek, a true high end wing with 40 goal potential.

Again, would I have rather seen Moulskn and those picks moved for a top pair DMan or starting goaltender under contract? Absolutely. I just take umbrage with the suggestion that Moulson was traded, Vanek came in and then the season went to s**t. As if Vanek is the culprit. The season was going poorly before the deal, hence the reason Garth made the move. And it's been the lack of secondary scoring (again) and the miserable "D" that have caused this season to spiral down the toilet.
- Jethro09

You cherry picked one post out of several I made.

I never put it "all" on Vanek, not once. I can't stand when posters take one comment out of 29 and write a diatribe like you did.

Is it wrong of me to expect more from a guy we gave up a decent haul for? Take Moulson's name out of it and rename him Joe Schmo. It doesn't matter. We gave up a player of a slightly lower caliber for him and 2 high picks and he plays on a line with one of the best centers in the league. He doesn't scare me, I reckon he doesn't scare many in the league.

This team is a mess and, as has been pointed out, if more moves were made we wouldn't be having this back and forth today. But, I hated the trade the day it was made and I certainly like it less now. He never scared me as a Sabre, and we gave up pieces we could have sat on until closer to the deadline and saw who was available. We tried to strengthen a position that didnt need it, when the 2 other departments on this team are subpar.

There is no question the loss of Viznovsky is where the season turned. Not the trade. Saying that, Vanek has been a huge disappointment and I'll be ecstatic if we can even get the 1st back at this point.

Just read through this whole thread

Some real funny stuff in this one

nicely done to some of you

some others still haven't changed thou


Also the fans chanting anything from the nosebleeds is the farthest thing that's keeping players from coming to this team

They may be separated by that amount of salary this season (actually closer to $4M), but do you really think their salaries are going to be much different come July? Moulson is in line for a huge raise, likely $6M and over per year, based on the market and what guys wth comparable and even weaker numbers are signing for last summer. Vanek isn't going to get a raise (or a significant one) from his $7.1M per he gets now. The difference in their salaries will be about $1M or so and yes, I think Vanek is $1M per year better than Moulson.
- Jethro09

Unbelievable to think he can be earning more than JT. I think he's about worth what he's making currently, maybe a slight raise, but the market will dictate otherwise. All that said, there's no way Vanek is worth 8 a year. He should be in that 6 range that Moulson will be in, but I'm sure someone will offer him what he'll want.

Moulson to me is a better Mark Parrish. That's about it. Vanek is obviously more talented, a better shooter and has slightly better hands, but it terms of skating its basically the same and his defensive liabilities are also similar. If you want my actual comparison.