You still can't argue that Raymond isn't providing value for the Leafs
- twiztedmike

He sure is. A good situation for him.

There was no cap then, and Kabyles deal was a steal. Maccabees was fine too, but people have no perspective.
- Big_Lightnin

You are so missing the point

There was no cap then, and Kabyles deal was a steal. Maccabees was fine too, but people have no perspective.
- Big_Lightnin

between the two of them they made oover ten million

and no, they were not true top pairing guys.. close.. but no, not good enough

Giving Dion $7 million is only a $500k raise over his cap hit now... Tucker and some other crap coming off the cap too... cap going up... get rid of some dead wood (ie Ranger) and it's entirely possible... just not likely... as #1 dman are pretty much NEVER available... Orpik hitting the open market? HA!
- SofaKingBored

And Orpik's broken now




Too soon?

for the mid 2000s?

yeah.. 4.5 million was quite a bit
- Dozzer

4.5 in a no cap league is quite high yes

for the mid 2000s?

yeah.. 4.5 million was quite a bit
- Dozzer

At the time his $4.25 million salary was a steal... it was when it was signed and even more so as the years went on... you're completely wrong on this one man... just back away slowly and focus on McCabe...

Aside from your misjudgment of Phaneuf, the main problem with what you guys are saying is that you're assuming you can just get other guys. That they'll just sign with the Leafs, at a decent price.

WHEN DOES THAT EVER HAPPEN?

Last time we signed two reliable big-name defensemen in UFA we wound up with Beauchemin and Komisarek.

Anyone remember how that worked out for us?
- Feeling Glucky?

Beauchemin worked out great.

Ok well, you run along and get those guys, for that money, without gutting the team.

Then train the monkeys that fly out if your butt to work the stereo in the press box
- Big_Lightnin

fixed

You are so missing the point
- Fakepartofme

thank you. my point is those contracts handcuffed the leafs. as would an overpayment to phaneuf now.

You are so missing the point
- Fakepartofme

No, I'm really not.

Exactly.
Plus he simply isn't effective playing more than 23 minutes.

Good D player...but might time to move.
Who replaces him? well that's for the Gm to figure out.
- Fakepartofme

People say once he gets over 23 minutes he gets tired, blah, blah blah, well most of the top minutes guys play more, etc.. Suter and they do just fine, Phaneuf gets lazy, plain and simple.

thank you. my point is those contracts handcuffed the leafs. as would an overpayment to phaneuf now.
- Dozzer

The money given out didn't handcuff the Leafs... the NTC's given out like candy did... big difference... teams would have gladly taken Kaberle at that price!

4.5 in a no cap league is quite high yes
- senstroll

only in the 1st year of the deal

after that... they both became cap burdens

Cap over $70m next year, and going up up up.
- Big_Lightnin

I forgot...

Still don't want to pay Dion that money. With the cap going up and Dion at 6 per would be ok, but not a penny over. I would rather him be replaced.

4.5 in a no cap league is quite high yes
- senstroll

No it wasn't. His comparables we're making considerably more.

The money given out didn't handcuff the Leafs... the NTC's given out like candy did... big difference... teams would have gladly taken Kaberle at that price!
- SofaKingBored

yeah.. look at the work stability he found since leaving toronto

good argument

last time we signed d-men to inflated deals just because they happened to be "the best on the leafs" was mccabe and kaberle.

that is also something that worked out awesome.

A WHOLE HISTORY OF AWESOME

I CANNOT CONTAIN MYSELF
- Dozzer

And if the rest of the team was worth a damn, those would have been good signings.
But the Leafs were on the brink of a rebuild and didn't want to admit it.
Is that where you see them now?

Phaneuf isn't just the best of the Leafs.

He's one of the best in the NHL. Top-10.

If we go back to Corsi-loving, he's got the hardest competition of any defebsemen in the league, and one of the best goals/against.... in general the only guys with better goals against see sheltered minutes. He finishes in the offensive zone more than he starts there. He blocks shots and hits. He puts up points.

If you get rid of him, and hope to find someone half as good as him in UFA for cheaper, you're going to wind up drafting in the top-5 for a few years, hoping to grab someone who you hope will give you that quality of play in the next decade.

These aren't opinions, either. They're cold hard numbers coupled with history.

If you want to get rid of Phaneuf, without having a guaranteed top-pairing guy coming back, you may as well trade anyone else who's over 25.

are any of them not named rielly in HFs top 50?

thats kinda what i was getting at
- Dozzer

Okay, but Rielly singlehandedly would be better than every single prospect they have put together.

If you're going to say he's no longer a prospect, a lot if those guys on the list aren't prospects anymore. So when they make another list there will be lots of new names, and you may find a few more on there. From either team. But probably not the Canucks because they don't have much.

And Orpik's broken now




Too soon?
- Big_Lightnin

Nope made that joke like two days ago.

I forgot...

Still don't want to pay Dion that money. With the cap going up and Dion at 6 per would be ok, but not a penny over. I would rather him be replaced.
- bixll

ThTs the problem though. There is no replacement available, and if there was, it would be better to have them both

only in the 1st year of the deal

after that... they both became cap burdens
- Dozzer

but the leafs moved him...for a good return at the time

something is not adding up

No it wasn't. His comparables we're making considerably more.
- Big_Lightnin

like whom?

Beauchemin worked out great.
- Fakepartofme

Yea, we got a great return for him, no doubt.

But Gardiner and Lupul aren't exactly defensive stalwarts.

yeah.. look at the work stability he found since leaving toronto

good argument
- Dozzer

So you mean after his 5 year deal was over and he was that much older, he was no longer the same player as the several years he played in Toronto?

Come on man... usually you make a good argument but you're just pissing in the wind here

No it wasn't. His comparables we're making considerably more.
- Big_Lightnin

I was being sarcastic
sorry should have put a winky or smiley face