thing i don't get, if PK is as awful defensively as you all claim he is without watching him, how is it that he's constantly a plus player while drawing the top defensive assignment every night?
- DoubleDown

+/- is overrated ... Too many other factors
Pretty sure Ian white was like a +30 on the wings one year

I'm not saying pk is awful defensively
Just not as good as a lot of d men who also have offensive capability

no, that's not how it works. the stats that make Subban look good do not count. Norris trophies that he wins do not count.

the only thing that counts is whatever makes him look bad.
- DoubleDown

oh.

Makes sense then.

career high? it was this third NHL season. difference between statistic anomaly and progression. and if it was a one off, why is he having such a strong year this year?
- DoubleDown

Glad that is the only argument you had with my post...(if you play two seasons and one is better than the other it is considered a career high too) Although I was alluding to more than just PK with that comment...he's good. There are a lot better though and better TEAM fits for the CDN Olympic team.

Considering Karlsson is -4 and close to a PPG player, I'd say he (frank)s up more defensively than Subban does.
- Pecafan Fan

When did I ever compare Karlsson???!!! I actually stated in another post that Karlsson's defensive play this year is subpar to his usually self because he's still healing from his injury...he's not as speedy as he used to be but seems to be getting better and better as right now he's better then the start of the year and at the start of the year miles ahead of when he came back for the playoffs...

Since Ek's original post was about trade value for Subban....

Do you think MTL would ever consider a package from EDM? Something like Yakupov/Eberle for Subban/(insert small extra)?

What other young talent combo could be more realistic for Subban than straight up Mackinnon?

Just to be clear...every other player who achieved career high achievements in a shortened 48 game season are one-off anomolies...with the exception of PK Subban? He's not a lock - period. He is skilled no doubt, a very quality player with questionable character and at times is undisciplined - he'll be a future Team canada staple in my opinion, just not a lock this year considering what is out there.
- Deeps27

Of course he's not a lock, he's playing his way on. Unless he just completely poops the bed and stops playing at the level he has been in his last 70 games or so he will make Team Canada.

Doughty this year: +3
Subban this year: +9

Throw some of those fancy stats at me, I bet they are in PK's favour too.
- FinAddict

Given the goal differential from both teams, that is about right. The gap could be a little closer, but 5 men are on the ice at one time.

WoW! another who comments just on highlights or looking at stats! typical! LOL
Karlsson was great defensively (pre-injury)! You don't need to make the big hit through the boards to be good defensively! When did Lidstrom destroy a guy with a check? Karlsson was the same, his incredible speed catching up to guys and great stick work was how he was great defensively!
Now he's still recovering from the injury and because of that lost some speed, so his defensive play has indeed taken a little hit while his offensive skill is still #1 in the league!
- Raven33

Im not talking about big hits and what not. Can Karlsson shut down another teams best players? No. He might not make all the mistakes on his outlet pass's or have a ton of turn overs while hes rushing up and down the ice. He only controls the game in the offensive zone. He isnt gonna shut down the big guys on opposing teams.

Quick question. Is he still gonna be recovering from injury the next time someone says they would rather have Subban over him?

Since Ek's original post was about trade value for Subban....

Do you think MTL would ever consider a package from EDM? Something like Yakupov/Eberle for Subban/(insert small extra)?

What other young talent combo could be more realistic for Subban than straight up Mackinnon?
- Alpamayo91

Aren't all the extras on Montreal small? Core guys too?

Wow do you even watch hockey or only the habs? If you thik he wasnt a big reason why they made the finals, YOU should stop posting!!
- kow23

THIS!

so stats don't count, trophies don't count.

the only thing that seems to count to you is giveaways.
- DoubleDown

Trophies count when ranking players for a specific year.

Ottawa has a negative goal differential, and Karlsson logs 30 mins a game. His -4 pretty much has very little to do with him, and much more to do with the Sens have 1 competent forward line right now.

+/- is dumb anyway.
- Talkshowhost

Thank you. +/- isn't a bad stat, you just have to place it within context. Look at the team's differentials, etc. It's useless when taken out, and put in a vacuum against another player's +/-, especially from a different year.

Since Ek's original post was about trade value for Subban....

Do you think MTL would ever consider a package from EDM? Something like Yakupov/Eberle for Subban/(insert small extra)?

What other young talent combo could be more realistic for Subban than straight up Mackinnon?
- Alpamayo91

You'd have to be pretty stupid to trade away a 24 year old Norris winner unless the return is ridiculous

so stats don't count, trophies don't count.

the only thing that seems to count to you is giveaways.
- DoubleDown

+/- is more of a team statistic. However it can be used as an indicator when compared to other players on that team. If you have a good goal differential, unless you are playing poorly you should be on the + side. However if someone is a +15 and the next defensemen on the team is a +5, thats an indicator that the +15 is playing well. In Subban's case he is a +9, which is good, however Markov is a +13, which is better. So Subban is playing well, however he isnt really defensively outpreforming even everyone on his own team

Hey stud!
- whipper334

Hey Whips.

How're tings?

Let's raise an early Thursday morning glass to the LNDT. We need to reassemble the crew sometime and SCALR this place up.

I dont like PK. But he was more deserving of it than Karlsson. His game is more complete than Karlsson's. Karlsson is a one trick pony like Green in Wash. They just offensive dynamos. I get the feeling that PK wont make this Olympic team. But will be there for the next one. I think that between these games and the next ones he will most def mature so much more. He's still just to much to handle right now.
- poisondhearts37

Whoa. You either need to watch more Sens games, or get off the "he puts up points so he sucks defensively" cliche. Green sucks, I have no issues stating that. But, Karlsson is head and shoulders above him with his decision-making, ability to effectively move the puck out of their zone and through the neutral zone, getting shots through, etc, etc.

10 Mike Green does not 1 Karlsson make.

so stats don't count, trophies don't count.

the only thing that seems to count to you is giveaways.
- DoubleDown

If he gets it this year, I'm a believer. 48 games vs 82 is a big difference... Too many Pahneufesque scenarios with PK. In saying that though, he should be on Team Canada...

Whoa. You either need to watch more Sens games, or get off the "he puts up points so he sucks defensively" cliche. Green sucks, I have no issues stating that. But, Karlsson is head and shoulders above him with his decision-making, ability to effectively move the puck out of their zone and through the neutral zone, getting shots through, etc, etc.

10 Mike Green does not 1 Karlsson make.
- Blackstrom2

Subban is more Mike Green than Karlsson is.

Im not talking about big hits and what not. Can Karlsson shut down another teams best players? No. He might not make all the mistakes on his outlet pass's or have a ton of turn overs while hes rushing up and down the ice. He only controls the game in the offensive zone. He isnt gonna shut down the big guys on opposing teams.

Quick question. Is he still gonna be recovering from injury the next time someone says they would rather have Subban over him?
- poisondhearts37

Wow! You truly never watch Sens games do you! He's the Sens #1 D, plays 30min a night, and YES, he's assigned to shutdown the other team's best players every night!!!

Quick question: Are you actually laughing at someone's injury and not believing how long it takes to FULLY heal from such an injury?!?! hasn't even been a year yet! wow!

Given the goal differential from both teams, that is about right. The gap could be a little closer, but 5 men are on the ice at one time.
- Blackstrom2

Obviously +/- isn't the greatest indicator of defensive play, but if you are a +9 player you're doing something right.

Also, PK averages about 25 minutes a night on a team with a VERY good goal differential, I wonder if there's a correlation? Perhaps even a causation!

Hack

If I was Montreal I would do it. Then I would trade Emelin, and my 2014, 2015, 2016 first round picks back to Colorado and get subban back...... Then my NHL 14 team would be set for years to come!

Obviously +/- isn't the greatest indicator of defensive play, but if you are a +9 player you're doing something right.

Also, PK averages about 25 minutes a night on a team with a VERY good goal differential, I wonder if there's a correlation? Perhaps even a causation!
- FinAddict

You dont have to play 27 mins a night or 30 mins a night when the rest of the teams dman arent terrible.

Wow! You truly never watch Sens games do you! He's the Sens #1 D, plays 30min a night, and YES, he's assigned to shutdown the other team's best players every night!!!

Quick question: Are you actually laughing at someone's injury and not believing how long it takes to FULLY heal from such an injury?!?! hasn't even been a year yet! wow!
- Raven33

People have a hard time believing having the puck in the offensive zone is a good way to defend.

Since Ek's original post was about trade value for Subban....

Do you think MTL would ever consider a package from EDM? Something like Yakupov/Eberle for Subban/(insert small extra)?

What other young talent combo could be more realistic for Subban than straight up Mackinnon?
- Alpamayo91

subban for Jenner,Murray and a first