Andrei Markov round6/162 overall in 1998. Not mentionned, just sayin.
- habfanforever

Just saying twice right ? Rafalski has since retired but he didn't mention him being an undrafted player.

Stevens It was a different NHL then also he finished his career with 908 pts and played 1600+ games which seems like a stretch for any defensive defense man in today NHL with the amount of injuries and what not.
- blizzzard

He had a hell of a shot from the point and excellent vision, then age 30 seems to have hit his offensive game like a ton of bricks. Don't know if it was the trap, the end of 80s era hockey, or what--but he pivoted to focus more on his defensive play.

I mostly remember him for his defensive play in the years he haunted my early Flyers memories along with Neidermyer and Daneyko.

Chris Chelios--also--made the same transition later in career. Became a solid defensive dman.

But my point remains--Defensive Dmen are also game-changers. Late-Stevens changed games with his hits and his ability to shut-down top line scorers. If a player of that kind of d-zone talent comes along--no reason, as someone earlier commented, to not consider them for a first-round pick because of no offensive upside.

Same with other first round picks like Brad McCrimmon, Adam Foote, Chris Phillips, Darius kasparaitis, among the many, many more defensive defensemen who don't get enough credit for their skills in HoF selections ballots or all-star selections.

Interesting, for the Flyers current roster, all of our big Physical guys were drafted in the first and second round Coburn, Schenn, Grossmen, and Mezsaros (and not by Philly) While all of our skill guys, Streit, Timonen and Gustafsson have been drafted below 250th or not drafted at all. Maybe GM's are shooting themselves in their collective feet by focusing too much on size rather than finding reliable ways to pinpoint defensive skill.

Edit, crap forgot about Hall Gill (207th) the lone exception.

Are you still made because Weber isn't on your team?

It sounds like the underlying message is, "Patience doesn't pay." So, you want to pick on the Predators. Well, how's that lack of patience working for those Flyers?
- TerryB

How did you glean that thought from the blog?

Ok let's just be completely honest here: Is Ek dead?

Are you still made because Weber isn't on your team?

It sounds like the underlying message is, "Patience doesn't pay." So, you want to pick on the Predators. Well, how's that lack of patience working for those Flyers?
- TerryB

Are you still mad because your gm played chicken with weber and lost?

Bill, thinking a little more about your hypothesis, by considering every defenseman playing across every team in the league, you are giving equal weight to the best players on the best teams and the worst players on the worst teams. I tend to think that that could skew the analysis.

What you really want to know is:

1. How do the BEST teams construct their defense, either using record or statistical measures of defense.
2. If you take the top 50% of teams, what is percentage acquired through draft, trade, or ufa.
3. Of those acquired through the draft, what is the breakdown by round.
4. Of the players on these teams under 28 (or whatever number you are comfortable with), what percentage were acquired through the draft.

Frankly, I don't care about the rosters of teams like the Islanders, Blue Jackets and Oilers...I want to know how the Hawks, Kings, and Predators built their rosters when it comes to defense.
- TheGreat28

Here is how the Blackhawks built their defense for their 2 cups:

2010
Keith (drafted 2002, 2nd rd #54)
Seabrook (drafted 2003, 1st rd #14)
Byfuglien (drafted 2003, 8th rd #245)
Hjalmarsson (drafted 2005, 4th rd #108)
Sopel (UFA)
Campbell (UFA)
Boyton (Trade)
Hendry (UFA)

2013
Keith (drafted 2002, 2nd rd #54)
Oduya (trade, 2nd & 3rd rd picks)
Hjalmarsson (drafted 2005, 4th rd #108)
Rozsival (UFA)
Seabrook (drafted 2003, 1st rd #14)
Leddy (trade, Barker)
Brookbank (UFA)

Chicago's history of drafting a dman in the 1st round since 2002:
2002 - Anton Babchuck, pick #21
2003 - Brent Seabrook, pick #14
2004 - Cam Barker, pick #3
2009 - Dylan Olsen, pick #28

Bill, thinking a little more about your hypothesis, by considering every defenseman playing across every team in the league, you are giving equal weight to the best players on the best teams and the worst players on the worst teams. I tend to think that that could skew the analysis.

What you really want to know is:

1. How do the BEST teams construct their defense, either using record or statistical measures of defense.
2. If you take the top 50% of teams, what is percentage acquired through draft, trade, or ufa.
3. Of those acquired through the draft, what is the breakdown by round.
4. Of the players on these teams under 28 (or whatever number you are comfortable with), what percentage were acquired through the draft.

Frankly, I don't care about the rosters of teams like the Islanders, Blue Jackets and Oilers...I want to know how the Hawks, Kings, and Predators built their rosters when it comes to defense.
- TheGreat28

Here is how the Kings built their defense for their cup:

2012
Doughty (drafted 2008, 1st rd #2)
Greene (trade with Stoll for Visnovsky)
Mitchell (UFA)
Martinez (drafted 2007, 4th rd #95)
Voynov (drafted 2008, 2nd rd #32)
Scuderi (UFA)

LA's history of drafting a dman in the 1st round since 2002:
2002 - Denis Grebeshkov, pick #18
2007 - Thomas Hickey, pick #4
2008 - Drew Doughty, pick #2
2010 - Derek Forbort, pick #15

Andrei Markov round6/162 overall in 1998. Not mentionned, just sayin.
- habfanforever

D Boyle wasn't even drafted

Ok let's just be completely honest here: Is Ek dead?
- CaptainRivet

There is an easy way to find out. Post a hockey rumor on Wikipedia and see if it's reported within an hour. If it isn't ....

Bill, thinking a little more about your hypothesis, by considering every defenseman playing across every team in the league, you are giving equal weight to the best players on the best teams and the worst players on the worst teams. I tend to think that that could skew the analysis.

What you really want to know is:

1. How do the BEST teams construct their defense, either using record or statistical measures of defense.
2. If you take the top 50% of teams, what is percentage acquired through draft, trade, or ufa.
3. Of those acquired through the draft, what is the breakdown by round.
4. Of the players on these teams under 28 (or whatever number you are comfortable with), what percentage were acquired through the draft.

Frankly, I don't care about the rosters of teams like the Islanders, Blue Jackets and Oilers...I want to know how the Hawks, Kings, and Predators built their rosters when it comes to defense.
- TheGreat28

No cups yet for Nashville but as far as building their defense with 1st rounders or other notable names:

2001 - Dan Hamhuis, 1st rd #12
2003 - Ryan Suter, 1st rd #7
2003 - Kevin Klein, 2nd rd #37
2003 - Shea Weber, 2nd rd #49
2005 - Cody Franson, 3rd rd #79
2007 - Jonathon Blum, 1st rd #23
2008 - Roman Josi, 2nd rd #38
2009 - Ryan Ellis, 1st rd #11
2009 - Mattias Ekholm, 4th rd #102
2013 - Seth Jones, 1st rd #4

Are you still made because Weber isn't on your team?

It sounds like the underlying message is, "Patience doesn't pay." So, you want to pick on the Predators. Well, how's that lack of patience working for those Flyers?
- TerryB

Layoff the moonshine

Need quick fantasy advice - start Giguere (at Minnesota) or Lehtonen (vs Chicago)?

There are just as many if not more undrafted forwards who turned out well..

St. Louis
Peverley
Teddy Purcell
Andy McDonald
Chris Kunitz
Curtis Glencross
Pascal Dupuis
David Desharnais
Mark Giordano
Dustin Penner
Sean Avery
David Clarkson
Vernon Fiddler
Alex Burrows
Tyler Bozak
Ruslan Fedotenko
Donald Brasher
Steve Thomas
Adam Oats
Pavel Datsyuk


just to name a few... making a list of a bunch of late round and undrafted defencman proves nothing...

Need quick fantasy advice - start Giguere (at Minnesota) or Lehtonen (vs Chicago)?
- S Kaspar Rollins

Id start Giguere, but it more depends on if Chicago or Minnesota plays worse than which goalie is better lol

No cups yet for Nashville but as far as building their defense with 1st rounders or other notable names:

2001 - Dan Hamhuis, 1st rd #12
2003 - Ryan Suter, 1st rd #7
2003 - Kevin Klein, 2nd rd #37
2003 - Shea Weber, 2nd rd #49
2005 - Cody Franson, 3rd rd #79
2007 - Jonathon Blum, 1st rd #23
2008 - Roman Josi, 2nd rd #38
2009 - Ryan Ellis, 1st rd #11
2009 - Mattias Ekholm, 4th rd #102
2013 - Seth Jones, 1st rd #4
- EastCoastOiler

Note that none are taken in the top 3 though (though Jones could easily have been)

There are just as many if not more undrafted forwards who turned out well..

St. Louis
Peverley
Teddy Purcell
Andy McDonald
Chris Kunitz
Curtis Glencross
Pascal Dupuis
David Desharnais
Mark Giordano
Dustin Penner
Sean Avery
David Clarkson
Vernon Fiddler
Alex Burrows
Tyler Bozak
Ruslan Fedotenko
Donald Brasher
Steve Thomas
Adam Oats
Pavel Datsyuk


just to name a few... making a list of a bunch of late round and undrafted defencman proves nothing...
- KovyFan27

I partially agree. But:

1) I wasn't trying to "prove" anything other than taking a pretty large league-wide cross-section of defensemen and seeing where (if at all) they were drafted.

2) The conclusion I reached was that while the best shot at finding a future NHL regular defenseman (and the same thing goes for forwards) is early in the draft, the guys who go on to become upper echelon players are pretty unpredictably distributed from a variety of starting points on draft day.

3) With double the number of forwards as defensemen in every starting lineup, there's obviously also going to a huge array of draft-day entry points. Doesn't change the fact that forwards are generally more projectable than D.

Also, Giordano is a defenseman.

Here's a really good cautionary tale against taking d-men over forwards at the top of the draft - Erik Johnson went #1, Toews #3 in 2006. Now I don't remember the particular projections at the time of that years draft, or the initial reception to the Johnson pick but it sure looks regrettable for St Louis in retrospect.

Mind you Jordan Staal also went ahead of Toews so this may be a hindsight thing.

I partially agree. But:

1) I wasn't trying to "prove" anything other than taking a pretty large league-wide cross-section of defensemen and seeing where (if at all) they were drafted.

2) The conclusion I reached was that while the best shot at finding a future NHL regular defenseman (and the same thing goes for forwards) is early in the draft, the guys who go on to become upper echelon players are pretty unpredictably distributed from a variety of starting points on draft day.

3) With double the number of forwards as defensemen in every starting lineup, there's obviously also going to a huge array of draft-day entry points. Doesn't change the fact that forwards are generally more projectable than D.

Also, Giordano is a defenseman.
- bmeltzer

I wasnt really referring to your blog, more to all the people listing late round all-star D

I wasnt really referring to your blog, more to all the people listing late round all-star D

- KovyFan27

There are late rounders that are D and Forward that come out of no where to become great players. The biggest issue is when you go back and look through the draft list from virtually every year, when you see a D man's name they are almost always picked higher than they should have been in hindsight. That's the reason you see forwards take precedence so much now. They are more of a sure thing.

There are just as many if not more undrafted forwards who turned out well..

St. Louis
Peverley
Teddy Purcell
Andy McDonald
Chris Kunitz
Curtis Glencross
Pascal Dupuis
David Desharnais
Mark Giordano
Dustin Penner
Sean Avery
David Clarkson
Vernon Fiddler
Alex Burrows
Tyler Bozak
Ruslan Fedotenko
Donald Brasher
Steve Thomas
Adam Oats
Pavel Datsyuk


just to name a few... making a list of a bunch of late round and undrafted defencman proves nothing...
- KovyFan27

6th round, 171st overall, 1998 what a pick

but add to the newest undrafted Stud Dman in the making....KRUG

With the exception of Eklund, I think I'm done reading or responding to anything written my Philly fans. I'm just never sure whether to laugh, cry, poop my pants, puke, or all the above at the same time.

You guys were in such a good position three years ago, but every year that Philly doesn't win the Cup (every year) it apparently means it's necessary to make drastic changes. Such a silly outfit up there. Silly Philly!

Here's a really good cautionary tale against taking d-men over forwards at the top of the draft - Erik Johnson went #1, Toews #3 in 2006. Now I don't remember the particular projections at the time of that years draft, or the initial reception to the Johnson pick but it sure looks regrettable for St Louis in retrospect.

Mind you Jordan Staal also went ahead of Toews so this may be a hindsight thing.
- S Kaspar Rollins

But at the same time in 1993 Ottawa took Alexandre Daigle #1 and left Chris Pronger to go #2. It can work both ways.

And while Erik Johnson is always given as the example of "defencemen going first over all is a bust" Then there is the Alexandre Daigle, or the Patrik Stefan who can be said to be forwards that were first overall busts.

This is my opinion, but this past year it seems that the belief was that Nathan MacKinnon was exceedingly further ahead of the other players. Then I believe that both Florida and Tampa drafted more on positional needs. Florida really wanted a center to be able to play with Huberdeau and believes that Campbell, Gudbrandson, and Kulikov had then in a good position defensively. Tampa wanted a winger that will be able to replace the aging St. Louis and become that playmaker to continue to play with Stamkos. I believe that those two drafted for positional need and not best player overall.

The next side of it is the Oilers and Yakapov. Yakapov was without a doubt what appeared at the time to be the best player in the draft. But at the same time there was absolutely no way that the Oilers needed another skilled, smaller winger. It's obvious this season, regardless if Yakapov is struggling or not, that the Oilers needed a defencman. They should have drafted Ryan Murray (or flipped the pick with Columbus for an additional asset) and picked Murray. Murray could be in their lineup right now and giving them the defensive need that they definitely need.

I look at this as a Flames fan. potentially my team could be drafting first or second overall. They will be faced with this question when it comes to Aaron Ekblad. He is ranked as being 2nd overall or even by some as a 1B with him and Max Reinhart. So who should the Flames pick? I think that they should take Ekblad. I think they need to consider where they are in their rebuild and when they realistically expect to be pushing for the playoffs or more again. Even if they were to pick Reinhart, and say he is ready to play next season, is him in the Flames Lineup going to suddenly make them a Playoff contender? As much as it pains me to say, I don't see how it will make them significantly better. I also don't look at Reinhart as being significantly better than Ekblad (like say MacKinnon and Yakapov were over Jones and Murray)

So they should take Ekblad. Yes as a defenceman the trend is that he will take longer to develop. But by the time he is developed and ready to hopefully be that pillar #1 defenceman he is projected to be, it will coincide with when the team's rebuild is ready to contend again. Send him back to Junior. Let him develop and in a couple years he will be ready to impact in this league. A rebuilding team has to continue to look at the big picture and where they are in that rebuild. My opinion is that the Oilers are a year behind because they went for the "shiny" Yakapov instead of doing what they really needed to do.

Regardless with some perspective and looking at the bigger picture for the team, taking a defencman early can be the better thing for the team

With the exception of Eklund, I think I'm done reading or responding to anything written my Philly fans. I'm just never sure whether to laugh, cry, poop my pants, puke, or all the above at the same time
- TerryB

For the record, you responded first with ignorance. What did you expect? For Philly fans to sit idle? All I am trying to say is that you can't come in, make comments about a team (any team for that matter) and expect no response.

Are you still made because Weber isn't on your team?

It sounds like the underlying message is, "Patience doesn't pay." So, you want to pick on the Predators. Well, how's that lack of patience working for those Flyers?
- TerryB

Can you please go be a fan of some other team? Your posts are embarrasing the sober Predator fans.