I legitimately came here curious about what you fans though about the future of this team because it does appear changes will be coming. I guess you can believe what you want to but if you saw the comments I had posted you would see I was just simply trying to learn more about the fan base's opinions.
- Genev21

my bad ... I saw the comments of several different Pens fans, and basically lumped all you guys together.

good hockey talk is always appreciated. Obviously I'm just in a bad mood because of my team.

no, you're right ... not all fans of other teams come here to troll.

it's just that I'm suspicious when these guys show up immediately after an embarrassing loss.

edit: and I would add that I hate it when I see Flyer fans do the same on other team's boards.
- FlyerGuy

Part of this is because it appears something drastic is going to be done. I mean canning Laviolette obviously did not have the desired effect. There are some nice pieces in Philly, and I'm not sure Holmgren is the right person to be handling them since he might be feeling a bit too much pressure to keep his job and therefore might make a hurried decision instead of a proper one.

I might take a few shots while I'm here, but my team doesn't even have a history with the Flyers unless you count New Years Eve games annually(years ago) so I'm mostly here to talk hockey and have a few laughs.

I'd guess Newbury or Akeson
- Jsaquella

The lines are going to be interesting tomorrow.

Raffl - G - Jake at the top...?

Friggin Staal.

There's a difference between "extremely poor knowledge" and hyperbolic. I knew the Pens were horrible, a non-factor, not a Stanley Cup Favorite, for a while. As for the particulars, I didn't care when addressing Oneonta, a Pens fan who whines impressively loud when any non-Pens fan steps into the Pens thread. So I shot from the hip. And unless I'm mistaken, there's no grade associated with my posts and no impact upon anything at all, so I wasn't too terribly concerned about complete accuracy.

And I would blame Iron City beer for the concession problems.

As for the Flyers, the owner and GM, I don't really care to debate it all that much because what I say has zero impact.
- wolfhounds

Fair enough. I'm cool with hyperbole. I just get passive-aggressive when it comes to the "pens sucked for a decade to get good" thing because it's an oft-spoken inaccuracy.

I legitimately came here curious about what you fans though about the future of this team because it does appear changes will be coming. I guess you can believe what you want to but if you saw the comments I had posted you would see I was just simply trying to learn more about the fan base's opinions.
- Genev21

The benefit the Flyers have is money. So I do not think they will be as screwed as say a team like Columbus for years.

Moves will be made, but the only thing I want is for them to be "different". In recent years there has been either no direction, or panic/stupid moves. Signing aging veterans, etc. I have faith in this organization's ability to bounce back, and no I do not think Holmgren will be around to do so.

I have faith in their ability, but I will admit I do not have faith in Snider, and his involvement. He may need to step aside, one way or another for them to be back for good, so to speak.

He was angry. I long thought that this team has no emotion, and even though Emery was somewhat reckless, I respect him for what he did.

His team did nothing for him all game, so he took matters into his own hands. I wouldnt defend it, but cant get too mad at him. We all lose our control at times. Glad to see him have that fire. Not enough of that on this crew.
- flyer_nutter

This is one of the flattest, least dynamic teams I've ever watched. And the worst part is, it seems to be getting worse, like a rising fever as opposed to one that's breaking.

My issue with him last season was there wasn't tons of, or a high level of 5v5 success. Him and Jake got a lot of PP points. But at the end of the day, points are points. I just would have liked to see more at even strength
- eayost

6 Even strength goals + 20 ES assists
6 PP goals + 15 PP assists
1 SH goal.

Giroux is not the problem on this team.. The lack of a number 1-3 defense-man is.
Too many similar players that are black holes on offense.
Too much expecting players to duplicate career years offensively

my bad ... I saw the comments of several different Pens fans, and basically lumped all you guys together.

good hockey talk is always appreciated. Obviously I'm just in a bad mood because of my team.

- FlyerGuy

All good I can understand you just assuming I was here to troll cause a lot of people have been. I just though it was an appropriate time to check in because this is obviously a team on the verge in many changes.

This is one of the flattest, least dynamic teams I've ever watched. And the worst part is, it seems to be getting worse, like a rising fever as opposed to one that's breaking.
- wolfhounds

They need a big change, a culture change it appears. It seems like nobody wants to be there.

Part of this is because it appears something drastic is going to be done. I mean canning Laviolette obviously did not have the desired effect. There are some nice pieces in Philly, and I'm not sure Holmgren is the right person to be handling them since he might be feeling a bit too much pressure to keep his job and therefore might make a hurried decision instead of a proper one.

I might take a few shots while I'm here, but my team doesn't even have a history with the Flyers unless you count New Years Eve games annually(years ago) so I'm mostly here to talk hockey and have a few laughs.
- golfingsince

The way it stands, moves will be made. I just pray they wait to the deadline. Let it play out. Call up some of those AHL d-men, and see what you have. Give Akeson, and McGinn a shot, even though both probably wont be around contributing significantly long term.

In terms of untouchables I want to keep Giroux, Read, and Voracek.

That whole defense can go as far as I am concerned, but you will unfortunately find no takers for Streit. Luke Schenn has some young upside, and a decent deal so I'd keep him if possible.

As for offense, there are no untouchables for me. I fear there are no takers for Hartnell. I wouldnt really throw anyone anyway, but if you find a deal that makes sense do not hesitate.

As for Coots and bSchenn... Give them the rest of the year, but if Couturier continues to show now ability at a consistent offensive game, then you cant live in la la land and expect it. He will be the 3rd line center for years, a good shutdown guy, and paid accordingly. As for Brayden, I wouldnt throw him away because he is young, but he hasnt shown much to inspire confidence at being a consistent contributer moving forward.

Fair enough. I'm cool with hyperbole. I just get passive-aggressive when it comes to the "pens sucked for a decade to get good" thing because it's an oft-spoken inaccuracy.
- ScienceJesus

I'm the same way regarding inaccurate information people try to pass off as 'truth' or 'fact'. I succumbed to low-brow tactics. I apologize.

6 Even strength goals + 20 ES assists
6 PP goals + 15 PP assists
1 SH goal.

Giroux is not the problem on this team.. The lack of a number 1-3 defense-man is.
Too many similar players that are black holes on offense.
Too much expecting players to duplicate career years offensively
- opeth_pa

I think compared to a lot of star players, a high percentage of Giroux's stats were PP. Obviously he'll have more total ES points. Territorially they didn't control games at even strength like they did the previous year with Jagr, and that made last season difficult. In the end, without looking it up, I'm almost certain he was on the ice for more goals against than for at even strength last year. I don't think it was just lines 2-4 on the team that didn't get it done at even strength both offensively and defensively.

I'm one of the ones agreeing with you about Giroux though. He's an important piece that needs to stay, and just needs to work through this rut.

They need a big change, a culture change it appears. It seems like nobody wants to be there.
- golfingsince

There has seemed to be a weird attitude with the team probably since the Stevens days.

I know its Philly media, and all but reports of a lack of "dedication", partying, I dont know... poop like that. They have been around for a while. They have had trouble playing with a consistent effort for 60 minutes for a long time. I know many teams do though.

They will fix it, but it will take time.

They need a big change, a culture change it appears. It seems like nobody wants to be there.
- golfingsince

If it's really as bad as all of that, wow...that's a full blown root canal and extraction.

I know he had issues and some of you Flyer fans had problems with him, but is your team missing the character of Mike Richards and how would you compare Giroux to Richards.

Personally I have always liked Richards (yes even while he wore those colours) because he was the type of player who just got whatever needed doing done. And right now I think that is something the Flyers need. They don't need the flash of Giroux, they just need someone to step up and grab the reigns.

I think compared to a lot of star players, a high percentage of Giroux's stats were PP. Obviously he'll have more total ES points. Territorially they didn't control games at even strength like they did the previous year with Jagr, and that made last season difficult. In the end, without looking it up, I'm almost certain he was on the ice for more goals against than for at even strength last year. I don't think it was just lines 2-4 on the team that didn't get it done at even strength both offensively and defensively.

I'm one of the ones agreeing with you about Giroux though. He's an important piece that needs to stay, and just needs to work through this rut.
- eayost

I cant blame Giroux. He is the face of a franchise, in such a big market at such a young age. So much pressure, to esentially carry a team.

He is not Crosby, and needs consistent help, which he is not getting. I want Giroux around on this team for a long time. It may not be this season, but he will bounce back. This team simply, at this point needs a real off-season. Weird to be saying so early, but I do believe that. They also need new faces, because it does seem like a lot of them have grown a bit tired of playing here. Such is the way of a losing team.

They need a big change, a culture change it appears. It seems like nobody wants to be there.
- golfingsince

I thought that was what was happening with the shipping out of Richards, Carter, Lupul and Upshall.

Which is clearly proven by his getting 48 points in a 48 game season on a horrible team.
- opeth_pa

let's be honest - that's misleading. iirc most of those points were not clutch or game changing. G was m.i.a. pretty much any time his team needed him to step up and get a big score.

Some examples: sluggers that get most of their rbi's when their team is winning big, running backs padding their stats with garbage yardage at the end of a game, goalies racking up a ton of saves but can't stop the easy save that matters most to keep their team in the lead. These are all examples of good numbers that mean nothing.

The benefit the Flyers have is money. So I do not think they will be as screwed as say a team like Columbus for years.

Moves will be made, but the only thing I want is for them to be "different". In recent years there has been either no direction, or panic/stupid moves. Signing aging veterans, etc. I have faith in this organization's ability to bounce back, and no I do not think Holmgren will be around to do so.

I have faith in their ability, but I will admit I do not have faith in Snider, and his involvement. He may need to step aside, one way or another for them to be back for good, so to speak.
- flyer_nutter

One thing about Money though is that while they have it, they're still under the same cap as everyone else. And unless I'm mistaken, they are out of compliance buyouts. So from now on, they can't fix their FA frack-ups with a buyout. They've gotta be spot-on with their FA signings and cap management, which is something that Holmgren has been awful at IMO.

I know he had issues and some of you Flyer fans had problems with him, but is your team missing the character of Mike Richards and how would you compare Giroux to Richards.

Personally I have always liked Richards (yes even while he wore those colours) because he was the type of player who just got whatever needed doing done. And right now I think that is something the Flyers need. They don't need the flash of Giroux, they just need someone to step up and grab the reigns.
- Ben37

I dont think one player is a fix here. I think the issue with G and Richards was the same. Young players put into a role too soon, of being the face of the franchise, after breakout years. Expected to be superstars, when really they are good stars, so to speak.

The Flyers need a lot of things, but its my firm belief that what they need most is a new direction from the very top, thats past Holmgren. In terms of actual players that would help, obviously a leader like Richards would. Although I think the defense on this team is a more pressing need. They miss Pronger, or a "younger" Timonen more than they do Richards imo.

I thought that was what was happening with the shipping out of Richards, Carter, Lupul and Upshall.
- Ben37

Which is a bit of a point I am getting at.

They needed a culture change back then apparently. With dry island, and the rumors of partying running wild.

What has really changed though? The lack of consistent effort remains, even though I do think to a certain degree they are trying to turn water into wine. The change that needs to be made, starts at the very top.

There has seemed to be a weird attitude with the team probably since the Stevens days.

I know its Philly media, and all but reports of a lack of "dedication", partying, I dont know... poop like that. They have been around for a while. They have had trouble playing with a consistent effort for 60 minutes for a long time. I know many teams do though.

They will fix it, but it will take time.
- flyer_nutter

I'm not in tune enough with the Philly sports scene or scene in general to know what it is. They do need to find some energy and desire however. We have a couple of guys on our team that seem to bring it every game, the most notable is probably Burrows who just makes the most of his limited talent with pure hustle.

Also, in Philly I think a true defensive leader on your team would be great. Somebody who just makes the unit more cohesive. You've really been missing Pronger's leadership back there almost as much as his minutes.

I know he had issues and some of you Flyer fans had problems with him, but is your team missing the character of Mike Richards and how would you compare Giroux to Richards.

Personally I have always liked Richards (yes even while he wore those colours) because he was the type of player who just got whatever needed doing done. And right now I think that is something the Flyers need. They don't need the flash of Giroux, they just need someone to step up and grab the reigns.
- Ben37

Well they could have built a team that had the flash of Giroux and Richards on the same team, but obviously they decided to go in a different direction. For some reason, bringing up the Richards/Carter deals is a big can of worms to some fans though. We're not supposed to talk about it. Like Fight Club

Which is a bit of a point I am getting at.

They needed a culture change back then apparently. With dry island, and the rumors of partying running wild.

What has really changed though? The lack of consistent effort remains, even though I do think to a certain degree they are trying to turn water into wine. The change that needs to be made, starts at the very top.
- flyer_nutter

Agreed. It's like there is no respect.

One thing about Money though is that while they have it, they're still under the same cap as everyone else. And unless I'm mistaken, they are out of compliance buyouts. So from now on, they can't fix their FA frack-ups with a buyout. They've gotta be spot-on with their FA signings and cap management, which is something that Holmgren has been awful at IMO.
- ScienceJesus

Holmgren started out really great, but to be honest he didnt have such a hard time. The best trade he really made was Coburn for Zhitnik. Bringing in Lupul/Smith.

A lot of debate on the Pronger trade, but I would make that any day of the week. He brought in a passionate coach in Laviolette, who imo was a great leader, even if he had a shelf life.

In terms of FA he signed Timonen, Hartnell, Lappy and a few others that were great signings at the time. Unfortunately, and not all will agree with me here, Holmgren has been very questionable since his first couple years here. The number of bad trades have gone up, and so has throwing big money in the wrong directions.

I dont know how much of a hand Snider has had in things, but the luster of Holmgren has wore off for me.