My son and I will be heading to DC.....then to kings court and ocean city.
- UnnamedSource

The plan as of now is for me and some friends to be in DC area between Xmas and New Year's.

True that...lot of people get phucked up because of SELFISH IMPULSES.
- philco28

Add in a complete lack of respect for themselves and others. Too many people think marriage or a serious relationship just is. A good one requires work. a lot of work. Also, understanding it isn't all sea shells and balloons.

Add in a complete lack of respect for themselves and others. Too many people think marriage or a serious relationship just is. A good one requires work. a lot of work. Also, understanding it isn't all sea shells and balloons.
- Elbows15

Agree 100% It starts when people are young though...kids develop a sense of entitlement because their parents are to afraid to say no and in turn they expect everything. They don't know how to handle pressure, adversity, or if they fail at something....their solution is to walk away or not take it seriously.

The plan as of now is for me and some friends to be in DC area between Xmas and New Year's.
- NewToHockey

Ever been? DC is awesome....obviously some great things to see. If you have the choice fly into Reagan International.....a great airport and easy to get in and out. If you are not traveling to other areas outside of DC you shouldn't rent a car. Get to know the subway....best way to get around.

Just a general comment that will be dismissed by some or maybe not appreciated.

I have been coming on this board for many years, actually there wasn't a Hawks blogger on HB before me.

I still come on because there is some good hockey discussions and many of the people have been here for years. Also I like John and he keeps the discussions in line.

Lately I have been noticing there is a lot of personal crap, arguing etc, almost to the point where there is pages of arguments that go beyond hockey logic.

No one on here knows everything, that includes myself.

We have all come along way with the Hawks, before things centered around constantly complaining about a poor team....There was a time when there was nothing else to talk about.

Now it seems there is more time left to criticize each other....

It's not cool and the most effective discussions about hockey are those that never get personal.

At least that is the way it should be and for the most part was in the past.
- Al

Good points, good reminder.

Giving myself a 2 a 10 and a game. See you guys Saturday.

One major difference in accumulating data is the NHL involves more subjectivity than other sports.
- Al

Al, this is definitely part of it. I know takeaways and hits and I think blocks are all totally subjective by the home scorer, so using that information can be problematic, but I think for the most part its right (especially shot counting which is the most important to me).

Snap's points are dead on. Its not like I watch the game and look down to check out stats and miss stuff, but I like looking at stats that you don't get in a normal box score to see if they support my opinions. Example, when I first started focusing on puck possession metrics a couple years ago, my first thought was, wow, I bet Jonathan Toews is a killer at this. And it turned out I was right, he's one of the best in the league. Then I look at a guy like Ovechkin, unbelievably talented, one of the best goal scorers ever, but I watch him play and I don't think he does any little things really right, and that costs his team chances. Advanced stats (bad name, in hockey its just counting) show that he really doesn't help his team keep the puck 200 feet away, he just is amazing at scoring. And with the Crawford short handed thing, I thought the PK had been playing well and the goalies letting them down, so I checked it out, and in my mind it was confirmed. Pretty much what I'm saying is you can use the eye test primarily (which is what I do) and use numbers to supplement it.

My grandfather is EXACTLY like the character in that movie...

He's an elder Irish-Chicagoan (Vet & former CPD as well) & a hardcore racist


- CBHawks88

Back in the 60's my dad, God rest his soul, was Archie Bunker before there was an Archie Bunker...

Back in the 60's my dad, God rest his soul, was Archie Bunker before there was an Archie Bunker...
- Glenman12

My dad is still Archie Bunker......I have to filter him when my son is over by his grandparents

My dad is still Archie Bunker......I have to filter him when my son is over by his grandparents
- UnnamedSource

lol...

Was that you? Sorry.
- Elbows15

Ever been? DC is awesome....obviously some great things to see. If you have the choice fly into Reagan International.....a great airport and easy to get in and out. If you are not traveling to other areas outside of DC you shouldn't rent a car. Get to know the subway....best way to get around.
- UnnamedSource

Been there a few times. A group of five is driving there. Doing some touristy stuff in addition to hitting a Yule party a DC group of our friends throw.

Al, this is definitely part of it. I know takeaways and hits and I think blocks are all totally subjective by the home scorer, so using that information can be problematic, but I think for the most part its right (especially shot counting which is the most important to me).

Snap's points are dead on. Its not like I watch the game and look down to check out stats and miss stuff, but I like looking at stats that you don't get in a normal box score to see if they support my opinions. Example, when I first started focusing on puck possession metrics a couple years ago, my first thought was, wow, I bet Jonathan Toews is a killer at this. And it turned out I was right, he's one of the best in the league. Then I look at a guy like Ovechkin, unbelievably talented, one of the best goal scorers ever, but I watch him play and I don't think he does any little things really right, and that costs his team chances. Advanced stats (bad name, in hockey its just counting) show that he really doesn't help his team keep the puck 200 feet away, he just is amazing at scoring. And with the Crawford short handed thing, I thought the PK had been playing well and the goalies letting them down, so I checked it out, and in my mind it was confirmed. Pretty much what I'm saying is you can use the eye test primarily (which is what I do) and use numbers to supplement it.
- rollpards19

Good job on the posts today, Pards. Some good info on metrics. One thought, though, is that stats might be subject to confirmation bias. Not saying you are doing this (although almost all humans do) in your examples, but forming the opinion first and then searching for stats to support that opinion leads to confirmation bias. Not trying to be a richard at all; you have well thought-out posts, imo.

What do you think about this Toronto issue with the metrics? I've read that they are the Anti-stats crowd's favorite team and that the Pro-stats crowd is praying they begin to soil the bed. Curious what others think.

>Very true, but some of the current "hot" fielding data in MLB is layered with subjectivity -- assumptions are made about a player's range, etc.
>My long-winded point in all this is this: Hawks can win a game, say 4-1 but have one of their Dmen cause 5 unforced icings (stat sheet) -- other team doesn't score of any draws (but on another night?)
>Coach sees stat sheet and quickly looks at the tape loop set up on those plays to see what happened -- all bad passes? Dman not moving his feet? players stop skating or miss good passes?
>If indeed 5 unforced bad breakout passes, Dman needs to fix it, right away
- SnapitUpstairs

Basically it is a tool....

Al, this is definitely part of it. I know takeaways and hits and I think blocks are all totally subjective by the home scorer, so using that information can be problematic, but I think for the most part its right (especially shot counting which is the most important to me).

Snap's points are dead on. Its not like I watch the game and look down to check out stats and miss stuff, but I like looking at stats that you don't get in a normal box score to see if they support my opinions. Example, when I first started focusing on puck possession metrics a couple years ago, my first thought was, wow, I bet Jonathan Toews is a killer at this. And it turned out I was right, he's one of the best in the league. Then I look at a guy like Ovechkin, unbelievably talented, one of the best goal scorers ever, but I watch him play and I don't think he does any little things really right, and that costs his team chances. Advanced stats (bad name, in hockey its just counting) show that he really doesn't help his team keep the puck 200 feet away, he just is amazing at scoring. And with the Crawford short handed thing, I thought the PK had been playing well and the goalies letting them down, so I checked it out, and in my mind it was confirmed. Pretty much what I'm saying is you can use the eye test primarily (which is what I do) and use numbers to supplement it.
- rollpards19

I think if getting deeply into the analytics makes the sport more enjoyable for you that's great.

I traded for a living since the 80's and what little is left of mind works by identifying patterns, looking to data etc. but with hockey I don't rely on stats etct to establish an opinion.

The key point you made, is that you watch the game and establish a position and then look to the stats to confirm. In my view you are using the data to support a conclusion but to not make a conclusion and that is the way they should be used...As a tool.

But some that haven't given themselves a chance to really know how to watch a game. or those that can't, look to analytics to give them a conclusion before they make one themselves.

The data has gotten better but unless consistent it isn't very reliable and hockey by its very nature has more variables than other major sports.

If I watch a game and conclude Keith had a bad night....Even if his Corsi or whatever else is good I write he had an off game.

Some people appreciate my opinions and others look to contradict them by citing analytics when they fit.

That's their right and fortunately I can write what I feel.

Good job on the posts today, Pards. Some good info on metrics. One thought, though, is that stats might be subject to confirmation bias. Not saying you are doing this (although almost all humans do) in your examples, but forming the opinion first and then searching for stats to support that opinion leads to confirmation bias. Not trying to be a richard at all; you have well thought-out posts, imo.

What do you think about this Toronto issue with the metrics? I've read that they are the Anti-stats crowd's favorite team and that the Pro-stats crowd is praying they begin to soil the bed. Curious what others think.
- mohel

Mohel,

Were you 0r are you a trader?

Wow if true....wasn't something similar happening with the Flyers and Hartnells ex wife a few years ago?
- UnnamedSource

yep, which is why carter & richards are gone & caused a divorce for Danny Briere also.

What's the matter with these twats ? They all phuck'n around....MORALS and the basic sense of right and wrong have seemingly gone to SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHIT.

- philco28

they learn it from the NBA guys phil! they're baby daddy's all over the place!

Mohel,

Were you 0r are you a trader?
- Al

No I haven't been a trader. Why do you ask? I don't hate stats or love them; but I do find them a little easy to rely on. I try to retain a healthy skepticism and ask myself whether the stat is really reliable. I am skeptical that stats can really tell us a ton (I do think they can tell us some stuff) about a game that is so interactive. Baseball is more individual in nature, and is easier to analyze in that fashion. Football, I think, is similar to hockey. But, I certainly know that I don't know enough to be positive one way or the other.

No I haven't been a trader. Why do you ask? I don't hate stats or love them; but I do find them a little easy to rely on. I try to retain a healthy skepticism and ask myself whether the stat is really reliable. I am skeptical that stats can really tell us a ton (I do think they can tell us some stuff) about a game that is so interactive. Baseball is more individual in nature, and is easier to analyze in that fashion. Football, I think, is similar to hockey. But, I certainly know that I don't know enough to be positive one way or the other.
- mohel

I asked because your comments to Rollpard reminded me of something traders are careful about when presented with systems, analytics etc.

The term curve fitting comes to mind whereby data is "fitted" to support an outcome.

Football and other sports are different my view....Players are on the ice as a unit for 40 seconds or so, more changes more variables as well as categories are more subjective in hockey than other sports.

I asked because your comments to Rollpard reminded me of something traders are careful about when presented with systems, analytics etc.

The term curve fitting comes to mind whereby data is "fitted" to support an outcome.

Football and other sports are different my view....Players are on the ice as a unit for 40 seconds or so, more changes more variables as well as categories are more subjective in hockey than other sports.
- Al

In the research study world (which I am not in, but have learned about) they call this confirmation bias. It is rarely intentional, which makes it difficult to account for and counter. Anyway, I enjoy hearing about hockey analytics but not totally sold at this point.

In the research study world (which I am not in, but have learned about) they call this confirmation bias. It is rarely intentional, which makes it difficult to account for and counter. Anyway, I enjoy hearing about hockey analytics but not totally sold at this point.
- mohel

Similar but somewhat different...But I think you see my point.

Add in a complete lack of respect for themselves and others. Too many people think marriage or a serious relationship just is. A good one requires work. a lot of work. Also, understanding it isn't all sea shells and balloons.
- Elbows15

Agreed....lot of work, understanding and patience make the best relationships last and if it's going sour...last thing that's gonna work is violence.

they learn it from the NBA guys phil! they're baby daddy's all over the place!
- wonthecup10

Sadly, it's a pox on so many parts of human culture.

It's probably a combination of the two, but the key words are done, and both.
- Tugboat

Khabby performance this year. Keeping in line with current events but using an old song, I think of the frightening O'Bama Care on a dismal, dreary rain soaked day ought to play the '60's song "spooky." It fits. Even if the song isn't our favorite hum along!

Good job on the posts today, Pards. Some good info on metrics. One thought, though, is that stats might be subject to confirmation bias. Not saying you are doing this (although almost all humans do) in your examples, but forming the opinion first and then searching for stats to support that opinion leads to confirmation bias. Not trying to be a richard at all; you have well thought-out posts, imo.

What do you think about this Toronto issue with the metrics? I've read that they are the Anti-stats crowd's favorite team and that the Pro-stats crowd is praying they begin to soil the bed. Curious what others think.
- mohel

Personally, I think individual metrics are great for sports like baseball but they paint an incomplete picture. Hockey, football and basketball are less individualistic sports than baseball.