Yeah, wagon hitched to a couple of geriatric defensemen... we know Kimmo hasn't lost anything at the age of 38... not a bit. I suppose we can just assume Pronger would have been the same player at 39 that he was during the Cup run, too. Pure beauty. All our problems solved.
- Tomahawk

Cause Kimmo is a HOFer like Pronger. And Nick Lidstrom, Ray Bourque, and most other surefire HOF defensemen couldn't play a lick past 38.

Not saying a healthy Pronger is a cure all, but he'd most likely still be very productive right now.

Laughton has played 5 NHL games and he's already a bust? Guess that Mike Richards guy will never make it past the 4th line either.

I agree that changes have to be made. But the constant day by day whining crying and overly dramamtic calling-out of the same 3 players gets so (frank)ing old.
- jmatchett383

I didn't say Laughton was a bust, but even you have to admit there is very little chance of him being an all-star player in this league. That was all I'm saying.

I didn't say Laughton was a bust, but even you have to admit there is very little chance of him being an all-star player in this league. That was all I'm saying.
- youarewrong

Probably not an All-Star, but I'm not gonna say he's limited to the 2nd/3rd line (talent-wise). I've yet to see him play in the NHL except as an 18-year-old playing 4th line minutes on a terrible team.

I didn't say Laughton was a bust, but even you have to admit there is very little chance of him being an all-star player in this league. That was all I'm saying.
- youarewrong

how can you say that when he hasn't even played more than a fraction of a season?

how can you say that when he hasn't even played more than a fraction of a season?
- 2Real

Hey! How exactly is a rainbow made? How exactly does a sun set? How exactly does a posi-trac rear-end on a Plymouth work? It just does. I just know.

Seriously though, most people will agree that his ceiling is around a 2nd line winger.

Probably not an All-Star, but I'm not gonna say he's limited to the 2nd/3rd line (talent-wise). I've yet to see him play in the NHL except as an 18-year-old playing 4th line minutes on a terrible team.
- jmatchett383

You might not know, but you can project. I'm just saying if I can package him with a defenseman and a 2nd and get Vanek, someone that is a career 35-40 goal scorer and a point per game player, then I do it. Then you have the next 5 months to work out an agreeable contract, and if you cant, then trade him to another team for a equal to higher return.

Cause Kimmo is a HOFer like Pronger. And Nick Lidstrom, Ray Bourque, and most other surefire HOF defensemen couldn't play a lick past 38.

Not saying a healthy Pronger is a cure all, but he'd most likely still be very productive right now.
- jmatchett383

There are a lot more HOF dmen that retired due to cumulative injuries and/or decline in their late 30's than not. You also have to admit that the kind of hard miles that Pronger had on his tires are a stark contrast to what Niedermeyer, Lidstrom and Bourque had on theirs... big, physical guys like Blake, Potvin, Robinson, Stevens... they all ended up hanging 'em up at 39-40, and there are a lot more big guys that hung 'em up even sooner than that.

Pronger was already clearly not the same player as he was in his prime... it would have just kept going downhill from there.

You might not know, but you can project. I'm just saying if I can package him with a defenseman and a 2nd and get Vanek, someone that is a career 35-40 goal scorer and a point per game player, then I do it. Then you have the next 5 months to work out an agreeable contract, and if you cant, then trade him to another team for a equal to higher return.
- youarewrong

I'd rather have that 2nd line winger who's gonna be here (or at least can be) for years at a relatively low cap hit as compared to a player who will be here for a few months and will command $6M/year.

There are a lot more HOF dmen that retired due to cumulative injuries and/or decline in their late 30's than not. You also have to admit that the kind of hard miles that Pronger had on his tires are a stark contrast to what Niedermeyer, Lidstrom and Bourque had on theirs... big, physical guys like Blake, Potvin, Robinson, Stevens... they all ended up hanging 'em up at 39-40, and there are a lot more big guys that hung 'em up even sooner than that.

Pronger was already clearly not the same player as he was in his prime... it would have just kept going downhill from there.
- Tomahawk

No player is the same as they were in their prime. I fully believe that Pronger was smart enough to keep being a productive top-pair player until at least next season. Just my take, we can disagree all we want on this one.

You might not know, but you can project. I'm just saying if I can package him with a defenseman and a 2nd and get Vanek, someone that is a career 35-40 goal scorer and a point per game player, then I do it. Then you have the next 5 months to work out an agreeable contract, and if you cant, then trade him to another team for a equal to higher return.
- youarewrong

Vanek's a good scorer, but he's already at the tail end of his statistically-expected scoring prime... do you really want to watch him decline like Dany Heatley to the tune of $7-8M/year for the next 6-8 years?

If they trade a bunch of top-shelf assets, I'd hope it would be for somebody in their mid-20's... like how Toronto is reaping the benefits of having nabbed several scorers as they enter their primes -- Lupul, JvR, Kessel.

I'd rather have that 2nd line winger who's gonna be here (or at least can be) for years at a relatively low cap hit as compared to a player who will be here for a few months and will command $6M/year.
- jmatchett383

I'm ok with 6 million for Vanek. But what about Yakupov then. He has top line all-star scoring talent. He is cap friendly and will be around for a long time....

Would you trade Simmonds, Laughton, and Coburn for him?

Vanek's a good scorer, but he's already at the tail end of his statistically-expected scoring prime... do you really want to watch him decline like Dany Heatley to the tune of $7-8M/year for the next 6-8 years?

If they trade a bunch of top-shelf assets, I'd hope it would be for somebody in their mid-20's... like how Toronto is reaping the benefits of having nabbed several scorers as they enter their primes -- Lupul, JvR, Kessel.
- Tomahawk

The only players they should target would be young guys who they hope can develop. Even if it's a young guy who's a #5 defenseman, it's better to have him and hope he pans out to a #4 guy at $1.5M than have another Meszaros at his cap hit.

I'm ok with 6 million for Vanek. But what about Yakupov then. He has top line all-star scoring talent. He is cap friendly and will be around for a long time....

Would you trade Simmonds, Laughton, and Coburn for him?
- youarewrong

Not all 3. I'd trade a B-level guy like Akeson in that deal though.

Vanek's a good scorer, but he's already at the tail end of his statistically-expected scoring prime... do you really want to watch him decline like Dany Heatley to the tune of $7-8M/year for the next 6-8 years?

If they trade a bunch of top-shelf assets, I'd hope it would be for somebody in their mid-20's... like how Toronto is reaping the benefits of having nabbed several scorers as they enter their primes -- Lupul, JvR, Kessel.
- Tomahawk

It depends if you want to waste Giroux's prime scoring years or not. And Mason's prime Tending years. A proper rebuild will take at least 3-4 seasons and if you dont do it correctly a LOT longer.... see panthers and oilers and look at how long it took toronto.

And I dont consider Laughton and Coburn a "bunch" of top-shelf talent. I would consider Laughton the "Absolute" of the Hockey world. He is no Gray Goose, but he isnt McCormicks or Popov either.

It depends if you want to waste Giroux's prime scoring years or not. And Mason's prime Tending years. A proper rebuild will take at least 3-4 seasons and if you dont do it correctly a LOT longer.... see panthers and oilers and look at how long it took toronto.

And I dont consider Laughton and Coburn a "bunch" of top-shelf talent. I would consider Laughton the "Absolute" of the Hockey world. He is no Gray Goose, but he isnt McCormicks or Popov either.
- youarewrong

I'd hope they can get a young first-line scorer in the draft. I don't think Vanek will consistently put up his numbers for the next 6-8 years. We'll have another Briere situation where, when he's not scoring, he's a detriment to the team.

It depends if you want to waste Giroux's prime scoring years or not. And Mason's prime Tending years. A proper rebuild will take at least 3-4 seasons and if you dont do it correctly a LOT longer.... see panthers and oilers and look at how long it took toronto.

And I dont consider Laughton and Coburn a "bunch" of top-shelf talent. I would consider Laughton the "Absolute" of the Hockey world. He is no Gray Goose, but he isnt McCormicks or Popov either.
- youarewrong

G and Mase are only 25... 27-30 is the statistical prime for forwards.. the development curve for goalies usually doesn't see them nailing down a starter's role until 26-28.

Didn't you include Coots, Schenn, Simmonds in addition to Laughton in your 2nd/3rd-line potential trade bait classification?

Not all 3. I'd trade a B-level guy like Akeson in that deal though.
- jmatchett383

But that wont get you the Number 1 overall pick in the draft and a guy with sky high potential. I wouldnt hesitate a second to pull the trigger on the deal. As a matter of fact I would do Simmonds, Couturier, and Coburn for him if it came down to it. Look what it takes to get potential all-stars his age. Look at what Dallas had to send Boston for Seguin. And its becoming clear that the players around Giroux just arent going to hack it. Do we want Giroux to be like McNabb? Good but never have the tools around him to win?

why why why trade for vanek when he can be had for free in the off season
enough of this giving away prospects

G and Mase are only 25... 27-30 is the statistical prime for forwards.. the development curve for goalies usually doesn't see them nailing down a starter's role until 26-28.

Didn't you include Coots, Schenn, Simmonds in addition to Laughton in your 2nd/3rd-line potential trade bait classification?
- Tomahawk

I did. They would be player that I would be willing to listen to offers to get a top line scorer or number 1 defense. I'm not saying give them away, but to really improve this team, I think you need some top end scorers.

But that wont get you the Number 1 overall pick in the draft and a guy with sky high potential. I wouldnt hesitate a second to pull the trigger on the deal. As a matter of fact I would do Simmonds, Couturier, and Coburn for him if it came down to it. Look what it takes to get potential all-stars his age. Look at what Dallas had to send Boston for Seguin. And its becoming clear that the players around Giroux just arent going to hack it. Do we want Giroux to be like McNabb? Good but never have the tools around him to win?
- youarewrong

So why was Voracek able to shine around him last year but not this year? Did they both just magically regress after 3 straight years (Giroux small step back last year) of improvement?

Also, I don't want to trade those 3 for a player who has issues with playing hard and was sat out because of it. I see a better version of Zherdev there.

why why why trade for vanek when he can be had for free in the off season
enough of this giving away prospects
- 2Real

Come on, you know the only way to win is to be patient and trade all of your prospects for high-priced UFAs to be.

The only players they should target would be young guys who they hope can develop. Even if it's a young guy who's a #5 defenseman, it's better to have him and hope he pans out to a #4 guy at $1.5M than have another Meszaros at his cap hit.
- jmatchett383

Yeah, why we're still pretending that they're one or two name players away from turning this around AND winning a Cup is beyond me. They already added two name players in the offseason and it hasn't done diddly because the production of half the roster is still undeveloped.

Vanek's a guy that a Cup-worthy team looking to get over the hump should go after... like you said, this team needs to accumulate youth that can grow with the core, with an eye on making a serious run in the near future.

TRADE ALL OF THE YOUNG PLAYERS FOR A TOP LINE WINGER!
COBURN IS THE WORST PLAYER EVER!
THE SEASON'S OVER, JUST TANK!
LET'S TRADE 7 PLAYERS THAT ARE UNPROVEN OR HAVING A BAD YEAR FOR 1 PLAYER WHO'S GOOD RIGHT NOW!

Come on, you know the only way to win is to be patient and trade all of your prospects for high-priced UFAs to be.
- jmatchett383

why not trade for yakupov then try to sign vanek so oh my god we might be able to have both with little loss as possible
if we don't get vanek who gives a poop

So why was Voracek able to shine around him last year but not this year? Did they both just magically regress after 3 straight years (Giroux small step back last year) of improvement?

Also, I don't want to trade those 3 for a player who has issues with playing hard and was sat out because of it. I see a better version of Zherdev there.
- jmatchett383

dont forget both G and Voppa are coming off injuries

doubt either is 100%