I always see you throwing this top pairing physical defensive, defenseman term around.
Can you provide a list of players who fit this bill? D-men who are top pairing guys that have little to no offensive ability.
- PLindbergh31

There's been tons of players that have played on a top pairing that didn't have a lot of offensive ability. And I disagree that he has little to no offensive ability. He can put up 20 points or so in a Season, and he makes a solid first pass.

He's currently 6th amongst Flyers defencemen in TOI.

Right now, I'm winning this.
- Atomic Wedgie

And last year when he was second on the team you were in here every day telling us how great he was, right?

There's been tons of players that have played on a top pairing that didn't have a lot of offensive ability. And I disagree that he has little to no offensive ability. He can put up 20 points or so in a Season, and he makes a solid first pass.
- MJL

Who are the active players in the NHL that are top pairing guys with similar skill sets as L. Schenn?

What it comes down to then, is that it would have to be a puck moving offensive defenseman for you to be happy with the trade. If Luke Schenn reaches the level of a top pairing physical defensive defenseman, would you be happy with it then?
- MJL

I won't speak for JAK and I know at the time you and I went around and around about it for at least a couple days. If he becomes a shut down Dman I'm more than content.

My problem at the time, and still is, was that wasn't what I felt he could ever be. At the time of the trade there was a chance being taken on each side: The leafs were betting JVRs injuries weren't going to be a career killer and the Flyers were betting Schenn would grow into more than he was showing as a backsliding Defenseman that couldn't get ice time.

In that I felt a healthy JVR would warrant a significantly better return if we were going to move him for a young defenseman.

Who are the active players in the NHL that are top pairing guys with similar skill sets as L. Schenn?
- PLindbergh31

There's none, and there never have been!

I was disappointed in losing JVR also. I was one of the posters that defended JVR to the naysayers that were calling him a bust. And I was looking forward to watching him play on the Wing with Giroux. He's a good player, no doubt. I wouldn't label him as special though. Right now, Schenn needs to pick up his game big time.
- MJL

Luckily the team has had a week to regroup and learn some more about Berubes philosophy. Hopefully the entire team makes us forget about the terrible start.

Too many guys are underachieving and I can't believe it will last much longer. Thy may prove they aren't a great team, but they are better than this.

Who are the active players in the NHL that are top pairing guys with similar skill sets as L. Schenn?
- PLindbergh31

The same amount that had the same skill sets as Bobby Orr. So, I guess you're trying to say Bobby Orr is a bad choice for a top pair defenseman.

There's none, and there never have been!
- MJL

You're right. No coach in his right mind or who likes cashing an NHL check would ever put that mess on a top pairing right now.

I won't speak for JAK and I know at the time you and I went around and around about it for at least a couple days. If he becomes a shut down Dman I'm more than content.

My problem at the time, and still is, was that wasn't what I felt he could ever be. At the time of the trade there was a chance being taken on each side: The leafs were betting JVRs injuries weren't going to be a career killer and the Flyers were betting Schenn would grow into more than he was showing as a backsliding Defenseman that couldn't get ice time.

In that I felt a healthy JVR would warrant a significantly better return if we were going to move him for a young defenseman.
- mayorofangrytown

I think a lot of fans are unhappy with the type of defenseman they got in return. They'd rather have a fancy flashy puck moving point producer. So would I. But at the time, I don't think you'd get that for JVR. Still don't know that you would. right now, JVR is close to his potential then Schenn is. But that can change.

There's none, and there never have been!
- MJL

Top pairings throughout the NHL are littered with below average skaters, who are limited offensively. Every team has them.

You're right. No coach in his right mind or who likes cashing an NHL check would ever put that mess on a top pairing right now.

- mayorofangrytown

Definitely not right now, that's for sure.

what the hell is going on here

What it comes down to then, is that it would have to be a puck moving offensive defenseman for you to be happy with the trade. If Luke Schenn reaches the level of a top pairing physical defensive defenseman, would you be happy with it then?
- MJL

I would be ecstatic. Sadly.. I dont think there is a single top pairing shut down d-man in the game anymore. You have to be dynamic to be that top pairing guy in todays game..

I also think your assertion that I think it would have to be an Offensive d-man is in correct. In fact, the only offensive d-man on that list is Shattenkirk. Subban is a very solid two-way d-man... and Bogo is an up and coming two way d-man.. assuming his offensive side continues to mature.

The same amount that had the same skill sets as Bobby Orr. So, I guess you're trying to say Bobby Orr is a bad choice for a top pair defenseman.
- jmatchett383

Yup exactly what I'm saying. I'm comparing Luke Schenn to the greatest defenseman who ever lived.

Who are the active players in the NHL that are top pairing guys with similar skill sets as L. Schenn?
- PLindbergh31

Well L. Schenn was a top pairing guy in Philly as recently as six months ago.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/pl...IPerGame&viewName=summary

From this list I would say Harmonic in Long Island is the closest comparison.

I won't speak for JAK and I know at the time you and I went around and around about it for at least a couple days. If he becomes a shut down Dman I'm more than content.

My problem at the time, and still is, was that wasn't what I felt he could ever be. At the time of the trade there was a chance being taken on each side: The leafs were betting JVRs injuries weren't going to be a career killer and the Flyers were betting Schenn would grow into more than he was showing as a backsliding Defenseman that couldn't get ice time.

In that I felt a healthy JVR would warrant a significantly better return if we were going to move him for a young defenseman.
- mayorofangrytown

I would be ecstatic. Sadly.. I dont think there is a single top pairing shut down d-man in the game anymore. You have to be dynamic to be that top pairing guy in todays game..

I also think your assertion that I think it would have to be an Offensive d-man is in correct. In fact, the only offensive d-man on that list is Shattenkirk. Subban is a very solid two-way d-man... and Bogo is an up and coming two way d-man.. assuming his offensive side continues to mature.
- jak521

All of those players are known as possession puck movers who handle the puck a lot. Schenn is never going to be that guy. And he's never going to be a #1 defenseman in my opinion. But he does have the potential to be a #2 who is a compliment to a #1 on a top pairing in my opinion. We have to see if he gets there.

Well L. Schenn was a top pairing guy in Philly as recently as six months ago.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/pl...IPerGame&viewName=summary

From this list I would say Harmonic in Long Island is the closest comparison.
- Feanor

On a team that had... two- three NHL d-men. That has to be taken into consideration... right?

All of those players are known as possession puck movers who handle the puck a lot. Schenn is never going to be that guy. And he's never going to be a #1 defenseman in my opinion. But he does have the potential to be a #2 who is a compliment to a #1 on a top pairing in my opinion. We have to see if he gets there.
- MJL

Boom... thats where we disagree. I hope I am WAY wrong here.

All in all it's a done deal.

I hope JVR excels in a Leafs uniform like Sharp has in a Hawks as much as it will kill me.

I hope I'm wrong and Luke Schenn becomes a better player than Grossmann.

I won't speak for JAK and I know at the time you and I went around and around about it for at least a couple days. If he becomes a shut down Dman I'm more than content.

My problem at the time, and still is, was that wasn't what I felt he could ever be. At the time of the trade there was a chance being taken on each side: The leafs were betting JVRs injuries weren't going to be a career killer and the Flyers were betting Schenn would grow into more than he was showing as a backsliding Defenseman that couldn't get ice time.

In that I felt a healthy JVR would warrant a significantly better return if we were going to move him for a young defenseman.
- mayorofangrytown

I am not ready to give up on Schenn, but the issue I had with the trade is that we didn't get enough for a guy who is a 2nd rounder. I remember a while back reading Ken Holland's thoughts on Dmen. He said, that it's never wise to overpayin money or assets for a defensive defenseman, as they tend to be easier to acquire. If you do overpay, you should do so for two way guy with offensive upside, not for a one dimensional dman. Schenn is not even playing like a shutdown guy yet, but hopefully he can develop into one.

I would have felt better getting more for Schenn in that deal..maybe Schenn and gardiner for JVR and a second or something like that. Or maybe, use JVR to get a real stud dman if they could.

On a team that had... two- three NHL d-men. That has to be taken into consideration... right?
- jak521

He was already playing with Kimmo on the top pairing until the injuries started piling up and they had to be separated. He was getting 20 minutes a game until the ill fated week of practice when Briere and Grosmann both got concussions. Then his ice time jumped up to 25.

All in all it's a done deal.

I hope JVR excels in a Leafs uniform like Sharp has in a Hawks as much as it will kill me.

I hope I'm wrong and Luke Schenn becomes a better player than Grossmann.
- mayorofangrytown

cue the response that jvr would have never excelled in philly like sharp

All in all it's a done deal.

I hope JVR excels in a Leafs uniform like Sharp has in a Hawks as much as it will kill me.

I hope I'm wrong and Luke Schenn becomes a better player than Grossmann.
- mayorofangrytown

This says a lot. I think most people are fairly bullish on JVR becoming a perennial 30 goal scoring first line power forward, and the hope is for Schenn to become better than Grossmann?

Good lord.

This says a lot. I think most people are fairly bullish on JVR becoming a perennial 30 goal scoring first line power forward, and the hope is for Schenn to become better than Grossmann?

Good lord.
- PLindbergh31

Yeah.. that worries me.. He seems to have regressed this year.