Dozzer
Referee Toronto Maple Leafs |
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Location: Somewhere over the rainbow since I’m way up high Joined: 09.15.2010
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Denied... I don't want to lose Gardiner - SofaKingBored
he's already lost to you
let him go man.. let him be free |
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daeth
Colorado Avalanche |
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Location: 43 points, ON Joined: 09.15.2005
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You're thinking about it the wrong way. These little miscues don't matter in the grand scheme of things. Corsi correlates literally perfectly with puck possession. Teams that possess the puck more tend to take more shot attempts than their opponents. It's that simple. Corsi = shot attempts. Don't overthink it. - panek
Perfectly? No.
It's just one of the only ways we can currently guess at possession since the league doesn't actually track possession. It's far from perfect. |
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I am willing to sit on the fence with corsi/fenwick until someone can actually show me something or prove its working to predict something. I like all forms of stats, the more info the better.
and since those from behind centre, and it bounces off the boards, off the back of the goalies skate, and into the net goals only happen once every 5 years we are good for a while - senstroll
and is that per goalie? per team? if so we still have another stinker to come. |
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Dozzer
Referee Toronto Maple Leafs |
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Location: Somewhere over the rainbow since I’m way up high Joined: 09.15.2010
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good man!
take one in the pills but still hangs on to the beer.
bravo! - zazzle
i know! the man has his priorities straight |
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peddy-93
Toronto Maple Leafs |
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Location: Bernier is better than Reimer, Reimer is better than Bernier - #TOproblems, ON Joined: 06.08.2012
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yeah a pair of real NHL GMs - honesthockey
Don't need NHL GM's for this survey, no ones stupid enough to have Bozak over Gardiner. Oh wait.... |
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Gary_B.
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Location: stormey is an idiot. forget it. - Pecafan Fan, NY Joined: 07.23.2013
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Who's panicking? Unlike much of the advanced stats crowd, I actually happen to think that the Leafs aren't doomed to hugely regress. Their goaltending and shooting skill is just too strong. That said, they do need to improve in possession if they're going to compete for the cup. They don't hold a candle to the Blackhawks of the NHL... yet... - panek
just a Toews, Sharp, Keith and Seabrook away. |
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Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs |
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Location: Tanktown, ON Joined: 10.08.2008
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It's not really meant to be used like that. It gets dumb when it is though.
edit: oh, i see i missed an essay that used 1000 words to say the say thing. my bad. - daeth
problem is, that's what lots of people do.
Bad corsi=bad team.
Bad Corsi+good results= lucky team.
It's pretty much exactly the same as using +/- to judge a player's worth. |
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markmark
Toronto Maple Leafs |
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Location: Toronto, ON Joined: 07.27.2010
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Why is Bozak still on the PP? |
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honesthockey
Toronto Maple Leafs |
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Location: Click heels twice and 1c appears. Joined: 09.23.2008
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Don't need NHL GM's for this survey, no ones stupid enough to have Bozak over Gardiner. Oh wait.... - peddy-93
you are (frank)ed if you think Gardiner is more valuable then Bozak |
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Gary_B.
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Location: stormey is an idiot. forget it. - Pecafan Fan, NY Joined: 07.23.2013
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problem is, that's what lots of people do.
Bad corsi=bad team.
Bad Corsi+good results= lucky team.
It's pretty much exactly the same as using +/- to judge a player's worth. - Feeling Glucky?
they really don't. |
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Rockhead_37
Toronto Maple Leafs |
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Location: Bolton, ON Joined: 09.11.2010
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Guys, Corsi is just a proxy for puck possession. That's it. In fact, it correlates almost perfectly with offensive zone attack time.
And guess what? Teams that possess the puck TEND to win more games. Duh.
That doesn't mean you need to be the best puck possession team to win games. There are teams that possess the puck well (cough New Jersey cough) but lack the scoring touch to win. But consider this: 3 of the last 6 Stanley Cup champions were the best puck possession team in the regular season. Of all the recent Stanley Cup finalists, only the Penguins were in the bottom half of possession. So again, Corsi isn't everything, but it's certainly a defining feature of all of the NHL's best franchises (Boston, LA, Chicago).
The Leafs are winning because of great goaltending (and PK) and high goal scoring/shooting percentage (they have exceptionally skilled forwards and tend to score off the rush or on the PP -- i.e., in high shooting percentage situations). But their lack of puck possession is pretty glaring. No one in their right mind thinks you can win games getting 2 shots on goal a period. Even Carlyle is harping on the Leafs' possession problems.
The good news is they're still winning. They're also missing Kulemin and Clarkson, two puck possession wingers so their possession numbers will likely improve.
I'll end this simply by saying this: if you're gonna try to rail against the stats, try to at least understand them. All Corsi does is describe what we are all seeing with our eyes -- the Leafs are getting outshot and outpossessed on a nightly basis. That typically doesn't bode well. Thankfully the Leafs have great goaltending and exceptional forwards. JVR is a beast. That is all.
Cheers - panek
Thanks @mirtle, but we already know your stance.... and it's full of holes
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peddy-93
Toronto Maple Leafs |
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Location: Bernier is better than Reimer, Reimer is better than Bernier - #TOproblems, ON Joined: 06.08.2012
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Why is Bozak still on the PP? - markmark
I dont know, ask HH |
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honesthockey
Toronto Maple Leafs |
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Location: Click heels twice and 1c appears. Joined: 09.23.2008
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Why is Bozak still on the PP? - markmark
Someone's gotta start with the puck. And retrieve it. |
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The Law
Toronto Maple Leafs |
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Joined: 01.29.2008
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Last night before the team woke up, Orr-Mcclement-Bodie had probably the best shift of the game to that point, and then Orr drew a penalty. These guys contribute, and on nights like last night they need to play more. - Leafland
I agree ....great at what they need to do. |
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honesthockey
Toronto Maple Leafs |
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Location: Click heels twice and 1c appears. Joined: 09.23.2008
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I dont know, ask HH - peddy-93
love that an NHL coaching staff knows less then you |
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markmark
Toronto Maple Leafs |
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Location: Toronto, ON Joined: 07.27.2010
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Someone's gotta start with the puck. And retrieve it. - honesthockey
Kadri is winning draws just as well as Bozak. Why not use a player that actually has some offensive tools? |
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you are (frank)ed if you think Gardiner is more valuable then Bozak - honesthockey
What??...Bozak +contract+NTC= unmovable... |
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ILoveLamp
Toronto Maple Leafs |
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Location: Toronto, ON Joined: 02.01.2011
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Guys, Corsi is just a proxy for puck possession. That's it. In fact, it correlates almost perfectly with offensive zone attack time.
And guess what? Teams that possess the puck TEND to win more games. Duh.
That doesn't mean you need to be the best puck possession team to win games. There are teams that possess the puck well (cough New Jersey cough) but lack the scoring touch to win. But consider this: 3 of the last 6 Stanley Cup champions were the best puck possession team in the regular season. Of all the recent Stanley Cup finalists, only the Penguins were in the bottom half of possession. So again, Corsi isn't everything, but it's certainly a defining feature of all of the NHL's best franchises (Boston, LA, Chicago).
The Leafs are winning because of great goaltending (and PK) and high goal scoring/shooting percentage (they have exceptionally skilled forwards and tend to score off the rush or on the PP -- i.e., in high shooting percentage situations). But their lack of puck possession is pretty glaring. No one in their right mind thinks you can win games getting 2 shots on goal a period. Even Carlyle is harping on the Leafs' possession problems.
The good news is they're still winning. They're also missing Kulemin and Clarkson, two puck possession wingers so their possession numbers will likely improve.
I'll end this simply by saying this: if you're gonna try to rail against the stats, try to at least understand them. All Corsi does is describe what we are all seeing with our eyes -- the Leafs are getting outshot and outpossessed on a nightly basis. That typically doesn't bode well. Thankfully the Leafs have great goaltending and exceptional forwards. JVR is a beast. That is all.
Cheers - panek
Team Corsi this year.
Number 2 - New Jersey (currently 27th in the NHL)
Number 5 - Ottawa (currently 21st in the NHL)
Number 7 - Montreal (Currently 17th in the NHL)
Number 9 - NYR (Currently 28th in the NHL)
or how about opposite
Number 18 - Pitts (currently 3rd in the NHL)
Number 19 - Colorado (currently 2nd in the NHL)
Number 22 - Anaheim (currently 4th in the NHL)
Number 30 - Toronto (currently 6th in the NHL)
great stats guys
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Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs |
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Location: Tanktown, ON Joined: 10.08.2008
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they really don't. - Gary_B.
Well, the ones that used corsi all summer to predict the Leafs failing this season certainly did. |
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Compeyson
Toronto Maple Leafs |
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Location: That one place, NV Joined: 06.28.2011
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Someone's gotta start with the puck. And retrieve it. - honesthockey
And make Kessel better right?
Those assists on all of his goals last night were phenomenal. That behind-the-back no looker was all Bozak, Kessel simply soaks up all of his talent.
Wait.... Hold on.. That wasn't Bozak, it was.... |
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Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs |
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Location: Tanktown, ON Joined: 10.08.2008
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love that an NHL coaching staff knows less then you - honesthockey
Same way they know less about Gardiner than you do, right? |
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peddy-93
Toronto Maple Leafs |
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Location: Bernier is better than Reimer, Reimer is better than Bernier - #TOproblems, ON Joined: 06.08.2012
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What??...Bozak +contract+NTC= unmovable... - Fruitcakenipple
Don't even bring in the conract or value, just on ice play. Bozak rules...... NAT |
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he's already lost to you
let him go man.. let him be free - Dozzer
Hey Bruce, would you actually like to see Jake traded?
Rielly is staying, that's fact, so do we move Jake? And for what? |
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honesthockey
Toronto Maple Leafs |
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Location: Click heels twice and 1c appears. Joined: 09.23.2008
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What??...Bozak +contract+NTC= unmovable... - Fruitcakenipple
They just signed him pretty obvious he's going no where. Carlyle loves the kid. Nonis too. |
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are those numbers named after ex NHL sieve goalie Jim Corsi? |
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