See what I mean?

One guy has deluded himself so much that the Flyers' every move is golden, he keeps equating his OPINION that the Flyers have "one of the more talented forward groups in the NHL" against the statistical FACT that this team finished 25th in the league at even strength scoring -- which is the ultimate indicator of talent in professional hockey.

There isn't a single team in this league right now, NOT ONE, who has a losing record if they are at 1.00 or higher at even strength differential.

That is 16 teams. Two more teams are at .93 or above. They also have winning records.

But one guy keeps telling us all that the ONE TEAM that is 27th in the league in even-strength scoring -- above only fellow bottom-feeders Washington, Buffalo, and the Rangers -- has enough talent.

His opinion -- which he can't bear to be wrong about -- keeps running into those pesky little things called FACTS.
- AllInForFlyers

Dude, don't bother. It's not worth it. You aren't allowed to have an opinion. He constantly says, "in my opinion", but apparently it's the only one that counts. You're better off just letting him post away and ignore it.

After 1

Oshawa - 1
London - 1

Stolarz has the night off.

Laughton no points

Dude, don't bother. It's not worth it. You aren't allowed to have an opinion. He constantly says, "in my opinion", but apparently it's the only one that counts. You're better off just letting him post away and ignore it.
- Flyers1218

I go rounds all the time with mjl and he does have good points sometimes even if I don't agree with him but I have faith he'll come around at dome point. You just have too. Watching this team everyone has a breaking point. Although I sometimes think he is bill in disguise trying to drive up hits.

After 1

Rimouski - 1
Shawinigan - 0

Morin no points

I go rounds all the time with mjl and he does have good points sometimes even if I don't agree with him but I have faith he'll come around at dome point. You just have too. Watching this team everyone has a breaking point. Although I sometimes think he is bill in disguise trying to drive up hits.
- SMS4016

What breaking point is that? Everyone is aware that the Flyers are struggling.

What breaking point is that? Everyone is aware that the Flyers are struggling.
- MJL

I know there is a sense of humor in there somewhere bud. There has to be. It doesn't always have to be analytical. You are a positive guy. You see the good in 1-7. And I commend you for that, but not everyone is as optimistic as you are. You didn't ask, but I'll supply some advice anyway. There are people that feel differently then you that are no more right or wrong then you are. This isn't North Korea, just because their ideas are different doesn't make them wrong. If most of the posts are as bad as you think just laugh em off and move on. You give a lot of good insight and it's a shame most of it is disregarded because you piss everyone off.

I go rounds all the time with mjl and he does have good points sometimes even if I don't agree with him but I have faith he'll come around at dome point. You just have too. Watching this team everyone has a breaking point. Although I sometimes think he is bill in disguise trying to drive up hits.
- SMS4016

Actually, I am MJL. Its the truth

...it's time this organization takes a proactive, patient approach at managing its success. Go get that pure goal-scorer in the draft. Build THROUGH the draft, not someone else's draft results from a decade (or more) ago...

this and more at:

http://www.orangeandblack...e-habit-same-results.aspx

You know, it's funny. Because it's not like I want to say the stuff I do about this team -- I said it last night, but I'm surprised they've been this bad. And if Bradley were around today, he'd be able to clarify a bit of what I'm about to say, because as he points out, the shooting percentages of the Flyers are extremely low -- where he and I disagree is if that is sustainable. The Flyers have some deep-seated problems and its personnel-based.

Whatever blame anybody wants to assign, or however patient anybody wants to be with the personnel, that's up to them. But this roster, these players, are playing almost identically with how they were last year.

The one exception: The power play, which covered up some of the rot on this roster, isn't working.

Some numbers:
2009/2010: 2.83 GF/2.71 GA; .97 5v5; 21.4 PP/83 PK; 31.6 SF/28.6 SA
2010/2011: 3.12 GF/2.63 GA; 1.21 5v5; 16.6 PP/82.8 PK; 31.8 SF/30.1 SA
2011/2012: 3.17 GF/2.74 GA; 1.13 5v5; 19.7 PP/81.8 PK; 32.2 SF/28.4 SA
2012/2013: 2.75 GF/2.90 GA; .86 5v5; 21.6 PP/85.9 PK; 29 SF/28.6 SA
2013/2014: 1.38 GF/3.0 GA; .53 5v5; 9.1 PP/81.6 PK; 27.6 SF/31.0 SA

So. What are we looking at here?

A team that is regressing in all the ways that teams that do not have enough talent tend to do: at even strength, and with shots taken/allowed.

The 2011/2012 season, with Jaromir Jagr and JVR and Matt Carle, and therefore enough depth to have Maxime Talbot on the fourth line, was a pretty damn good team. Ed Snider was likely correct: If Chris Pronger hadn't gotten hurt, they might've figured out a way to beat New Jersey in the playoffs. Maybe not...but they would've had a decent chance.

What we've seen from this team since is a simple failure to adequately replace lost talent. It is that simple. It has nothing to do with effort, or hard work or any of the other stuff that people try to equate with talent.

Last year, minus Chris Pronger and Matt Carle for the entire season and Carle's replacement in the lineup being the acquisition of Luke Schenn and a combination of Bruno Gervais/Kurtis Foster replacing Andreas Lilja as the No. 7 defenseman, plus the loss of Jagr and JVR, the Flyers lost almost half-a-goal of effectiveness at even strength -- and even more alarmingly, generated three fewer shots per game.

That is nothing more complex than talent departing and not being replaced. It is not any more difficult than that. No franchise would overcome that.

They did replace Daniel Briere with Vincent Lecavalier for this season and upgraded the skill of the defense with the addition of Mark Streit.

But they still haven't replaced Jagr and JVR -- and now the power play isn't hiding anything.

They can't score at even strength. Now they're generating even fewer shots AND allowing three more per game.

I keep getting questioned by one guy in particular who keeps telling me that this team is talented enough.

It is not. That's not my opinion. This is statistical fact.

This team showed the world what it was last year. The reason we are last in the league right now is because the power play is no longer hiding the fact that we can't score at even strength.

This team needs MORE TALENT. To replace the Top 6 forward production we got from Jaromir Jagr, and the scoring the JVR provided then and would have provided going forward.

I won't even start on the defense, because Chris Pronger is not replaceable. He cannot be replaced. They can add more skill, and should. But that is likely to come in the draft.

But this team is what it is. The development of Brayden Schenn and Sean Couturier will not offset what was lost -- because you still need nine productive forwards and a fourth line that can contribute.

I would hope that people who honestly think that there's no insight into my posts...just take a look at the numbers. They aren't lying to you. As currently constructed, this team isn't going to magically start scoring three goals per game. Because they can't.
- AllInForFlyers

I completely, 100% agree with just about everything in this post. As usual, your assessment is objective and without the normal homeristic bias - a new word I'll coin for this purpose.

Here is the Flyers recipe for 5 on 5 success:

1. Dump puck in corner.
2. Winger fights for puck and kicks out to defensemen at point.
3. Defensemen throws puck at net.
4. Forward gets greasy goal via deflection or rebound.

Here is every other team's recipe for beating the Flyers:
1. Defensemen fights for puck in corner. If player wins, move puck up opposite wall.
2. If player loses, have defensemen immediately move to shooting lane.
3. Block shot.
4. Forwards move puck up ice.

There are only a few creative players on the team, and they have no confidence right now. Their line rushes are thus impotent. Yes, that word is completely appropriate here.

They have no cycling game whatsoever. Flyers teams of the past that lacked offensive creativity could at least keep possession of the puck and when it was kicked out to the point, the shooting lanes were open.

They are way more than a fix away. Yes, they have some good parts, but the whole is much much less than the sum of the parts.

...it's time this organization takes a proactive, patient approach at managing its success. Go get that pure goal-scorer in the draft. Build THROUGH the draft, not someone else's draft results from a decade (or more) ago...

this and more at:

http://www.orangeandblack...e-habit-same-results.aspx
- isaiah520

I agree with the basic premise of the article. And I think that the Flyers are taking a more conscious approach to building through the draft. But the problem I have is that the author is out of touch with the NHL Salary structure and what players are worth.

See what I mean?

One guy has deluded himself so much that the Flyers' every move is golden, he keeps equating his OPINION that the Flyers have "one of the more talented forward groups in the NHL" against the statistical FACT that this team finished 25th in the league at even strength scoring -- which is the ultimate indicator of talent in professional hockey.

There isn't a single team in this league right now, NOT ONE, who has a losing record if they are at 1.00 or higher at even strength differential.

That is 16 teams. Two more teams are at .93 or above. They also have winning records.

But one guy keeps telling us all that the ONE TEAM that is 27th in the league in even-strength scoring -- above only fellow bottom-feeders Washington, Buffalo, and the Rangers -- has enough talent.

His opinion -- which he can't bear to be wrong about -- keeps running into those pesky little things called FACTS.
- AllInForFlyers

Haha...MJL I have to tell you that I was really thinking the same thing the other day when I read your post about the Flyers having six proven 20 goal scorers and likely a 7th.

You seem like a nice guy and all, and I'm trying not to pile on, but your like Don Quixote tilting at windmills sometimes. I do applaud your enthusiasm and attempt to find the silver lining, but sometimes I'm reminded of that scene in some movie, maybe Naked Gun, where the rookie cop is telling the crowd to remain calm, and he gets completely trampled into the sidewalk until he's flattened into the cement with only his head sticking out, still repeating "there is no reason to panic. remain calm".

Haha...MJL I have to tell you that I was really thinking the same thing the other day when I read your post about the Flyers having six proven 20 goal scorers and likely a 7th.

You seem like a nice guy and all, and I'm trying not to pile on, but your like Don Quixote tilting at windmills sometimes. I do applaud your enthusiasm and attempt to find the silver lining, but sometimes I'm reminded of that scene in some movie, maybe Naked Gun, where the rookie cop is telling the crowd to remain calm, and he gets completely trampled into the sidewalk until he's flattened into the cement with only his head sticking out, still repeating "there is no reason to panic. remain calm".
- TheGreat28

If you disagree, then feel free to debate me on the facts. I'm available.

And I believe you're thinking of Animal House.

And for accuracy, substitute possibly for likely.

If you disagree, then feel free to debate me on the facts. I'm available.

And I believe you're thinking of Animal House.
- MJL

Haha, that edit made me smile, MJL.

After 2

Rimouski - 2
Shawinigan - 2

Morin no points

After 2

Oshawa - 2
London - 2

Stolarz has the night off.

Laughton has a goal

I notice that there is zero substance here. Why is that. If you disagree, then feel free to debate me on the facts.
- MJL

That is likely a pointless exercise as I seriously doubt we agree on the word "proven". To me, a "proven" 20 goal scorer is someone who has done it at least 2 times, and in my mind really 3 or more times.

Giroux - Two 20 goal seasons. By my strict definition, he doesn't qualify but let's put him in the list based on his level of skill.

Lecavalier - TWELVE 20 goal seasons. Now this is what I call proven.

Hartnell - Six 20 goal seasons. Proven.

Talbot - ZERO 20 goal seasons. One 19 goal season. Fail. Not proven. Nothing in his play this year suggesting he comes close to 20 this year either.

Jake - ONE 20 goal season, and in a shortened season. Impressive. Likely to repeat. yes. Guarantee to repeat? Sorry, not proven yet. Has to do it at least one more season.

Simmonds - ONE 20 goal season. Not proven.

Read - ONE 20 goal season. Not proven. And I love Matt Read. Still...not proven.

Schenn - ZERO 20 goal seasons.

Couturier - ZERO 20 goal seasons.


And Read, Simmonds and Talbot had their career years on a MUCH more balanced team that forced defenses to focus most of their attention on the top line which freed them from PRESSURE to produce. That is much different from being COUNTED ON to produce.

I am quite confident in one thing...that you'll disagree. I respect your right to do so, but considering the current state of the team, I'd say your argument has lost some of its luster.

EDIT: And I'll really give you Jake, because I too think he is a talented player and one of the best players on the team. So I'll say 4 players that are truly proven.

If you disagree, then feel free to debate me on the facts. I'm available.

And I believe you're thinking of Animal House.

And for accuracy, substitute possibly for likely.
- MJL

Animal House! Ok, you gotta at least admit that was a funny reference

Possibly for likely - fine. Doesn't much change the general point of my comment.

What breaking point is that? Everyone is aware that the Flyers are struggling.
- MJL

When youre watching game and shots go wide of net for the 20th time in period, winger has clear look at net and fans on shot for 3rd time in the game, Dman has clear play around the boards but decides to throw puck up middle of ice again and again, when we take 5 penalties in a row in the same period and intermission interview player says we have to stop taking dumb penalties, basically the same things we saw last year and so far this year and I'm sure for the rest of the year and next and next and next and next and next because you know "we don't need to change " blah blah blah eventually some game god knows I don't know which one it will be for you but eventually you will be looking at the tv and a light will go off on your head and BAM!!!! You'll be WTF!!!!!!!!!!! At least how I picture everyone having that moment

If you disagree, then feel free to debate me on the facts. I'm available.

And I believe you're thinking of Animal House.

And for accuracy, substitute possibly for likely.
- MJL

This isn't the debate team from high school, haha. It's Friday night bud. Have a drink and chill out. The facts will still be there tomorrow to "debate", lol.

This isn't the debate team from high school, haha. It's Friday night bud. Have a drink and chill out. The facts will still be there tomorrow to "debate", lol.
- Flyers1218

Haha. good one. I'm in Vancouver on a business trip kinda stuck here for the weekend, and of course the Canucks are doing their East Coast swing. Anyone have recommendations for what to do?

Why do I feel as though the greet 28 just got suckered in?

...it's time this organization takes a proactive, patient approach at managing its success. Go get that pure goal-scorer in the draft. Build THROUGH the draft, not someone else's draft results from a decade (or more) ago...

this and more at:

http://www.orangeandblack...e-habit-same-results.aspx
- isaiah520

Excellent read.

Thanks!

Haha. good one. I'm in Vancouver on a business trip kinda stuck here for the weekend, and of course the Canucks are doing their East Coast swing. Anyone have recommendations for what to do?
- TheGreat28

Go out and enjoy the "sights". I've heard Vancouver has a lot to look at.

Haha. good one. I'm in Vancouver on a business trip kinda stuck here for the weekend, and of course the Canucks are doing their East Coast swing. Anyone have recommendations for what to do?
- TheGreat28

I Think someone answered this earlier? Internet and porn is I recall correctly

That is likely a pointless exercise as I seriously doubt we agree on the word "proven". To me, a "proven" 20 goal scorer is someone who has done it at least 2 times, and in my mind really 3 or more times.

Giroux - Two 20 goal seasons. By my strict definition, he doesn't qualify but let's put him in the list based on his level of skill.

Lecavalier - TWELVE 20 goal seasons. Now this is what I call proven.

Hartnell - Six 20 goal seasons. Proven.

Talbot - ZERO 20 goal seasons. One 19 goal season. Fail. Not proven. Nothing in his play this year suggesting he comes close to 20 this year either.

Jake - ONE 20 goal season, and in a shortened season. Impressive. Likely to repeat. yes. Guarantee to repeat? Sorry, not proven yet. Has to do it at least one more season.

Simmonds - ONE 20 goal season. Not proven.

Read - ONE 20 goal season. Not proven. And I love Matt Read. Still...not proven.

Schenn - ZERO 20 goal seasons.

Couturier - ZERO 20 goal seasons.


And Read, Simmonds and Talbot had their career years on a MUCH more balanced team that forced defenses to focus most of their attention on the top line which freed them from PRESSURE to produce. That is much different from being COUNTED ON to produce.

I am quite confident in one thing...that you'll disagree. I respect your right to do so, but considering the current state of the team, I'd say your argument has lost some of its luster.
- TheGreat28

Well you can change the definition of proven to whatever it takes for you to make a case. But that doesn't fly. You can't penalize a player because of a strike shortened 48 game Season. And the excuses you use to try and discredit players such as Read's 20+ goal Season doesn't fly either. Because those same reasons apply to every team. Bottom line is that the Flyers have 6 players who have proven that they can score 20 goals in a Season. That can't be disputed. And it's also a possibility that B Schenn reaches that mark, although he is not proven as a 20 goal scorer. But he is currently scoring at a 20 goal pace.

Giroux 2 time 20 goal scorer. Scored at a 22 goal pace in a shortened Season
Lecavalier 12 time 20 goal scorer.
Voracek scored 18 goals in 11/12 and scored 22 goals in 48 games last Season
Simmonds 28 goals in 11/12 Scored 15 goals in 45GP last year 27 goal pace
Read 24 goals in 11/12 scored 11 in 42GP last Season 21 goal pace
Hartnell scored 20 or more goals 6 times in a Season.

Scoring 20 goals in a Season is proving that the player has the ability. Especially when it's backed up by scoring at a 20 goal pace in the 48 game season.