other then sundin
- Bieksa#3

Yeah, I guess so...

Yeah, I guess so...
- Fosco

Did he play much with Demitra? Don't remember.

Monahan looks like the real deal

It's nice to see that Torts has given Garrison the green light to shoot more. I never understoodstood why AV refused to use Garrison in this capacity give his past success. I think he'll easily score 10 - 15 goals this season.
- DarthKane

The guy has 3 goals in 4 games and you think he'll only get 10 to 15? I d be surprised if he doesn't get 20-25 with his shot. The guy is solid all aroun. If team Canada wasn't an old boys club of easterners the I would give hima shot the Olympic team.

Monahan looks like the real deal
- Bieksa#3

Got him in the pool.

The guy has 3 goals in 4 games and you think he'll only get 10 to 15? I d be surprised if he doesn't get 20-25 with his shot. The guy is solid all aroun. If team Canada wasn't an old boys club of easterners the I would give hima shot the Olympic team.
- kaptaan

Are the Sedins only 2nd line players if you discount their special teams points then?

2010/11 stats;

Daniel 104p - 42p on the PP = 40% of production is special teams.
Henrik 94p - 35p on the PP = 37% of production is special teams.

Kesler 73p - 30p on the PP 4p SH = 47% of production is special teams.

Relatively comparable.

The difference is that the Sedins got to play with each other at even strength, and Kesler got to play with Raymond (not superstar Leafs Raymond) and Samuelsson...

Kesler has NEVER had legit top6 line mates at even strength.

EDIT: Again, not saying that you claimed Kesler is only a 3rd liner without his special teams production with the Sedins, just posing a similar question in regards to the Sedins special teams production.
- Fosco

You are doing it again Fosco.


1st, why would they be considered 2nd liners? ...and you are back to jumping to conclusions. Was I suggesting Kesler is a 3rd liner? I thought we sorted this out? I dont see anyone bringing it up but you and Bieksa#3. Relax....

I dont even think that suggestion makes sense. The Sedins are very consistent 5-5. You know, what nucker and I are discussing... Kesler's 5-5 output. Your argument on Kesler being demoted isnt even on topic....

It would take a very good center to move Kesler off his current position,,, and I suspect it would be to the wing not the 3rd. Gillis is going to look for a rental at the TDL to upgrade the 3 C. In what world would Kesler end up there?

edit: didnt see your edit when i clicked quote.

The guy has 3 goals in 4 games and you think he'll only get 10 to 15? I d be surprised if he doesn't get 20-25 with his shot. The guy is solid all aroun. If team Canada wasn't an old boys club of easterners the I would give hima shot the Olympic team.
- kaptaan

10 seems pretty low, and 25 seems pretty high. 15 or so seems about right

You are doing it again Fosco.


1st, why would they be considered 2nd liners? ...and you are back to jumping to conclusions. Was I suggesting Kesler is a 3rd liner? I thought we sorted this out? I dont see anyone bringing it up but you and Bieksa#3. Relax....

I dont even think that suggestion makes sense. The Sedins are very consistent 5-5. You know, what nucker and I are discussing... Kesler's 5-5 output. Your argument on Kesler being demoted isnt even on topic....

It would take a very good center to move Kesler off his current position,,, and I suspect it would be to the wing not the 3rd. Gillis is going to look for a rental at the TDL to upgrade the 3 C. In what world would Kesler end up there?

edit: didnt see your edit when i clicked quote.
- boonerbuck

edit edit: kesler has 36- 5+5 points in his last 98 regular season games. Not bad but not that great. Your stats are from 3 seasons ago. My stats are from that point on.

You are doing it again Fosco.


1st, why would they be considered 2nd liners? ...and you are back to jumping to conclusions. Was I suggesting Kesler is a 3rd liner? I thought we sorted this out? I dont see anyone bringing it up but you and Bieksa#3. Relax....

I dont even think that suggestion makes sense. The Sedins are very consistent 5-5. You know, what nucker and I are discussing... Kesler's 5-5 output. Your argument on Kesler being demoted isnt even on topic....

It would take a very good center to move Kesler off his current position,,, and I suspect it would be to the wing not the 3rd. Gillis is going to look for a rental at the TDL to upgrade the 3 C. In what world would Kesler end up there?
- boonerbuck

See the edit in my post. I added it a while ago, but it still must have been after you quoted it.

I stated that you didn't say this, and that it was only a question in regards to discounting special teams production. So no, I'm not jumping to conclusions, just a general question in regards to discounting special teams production.

I'm not sure why you keep bringing up Bieksa#3.

I've never seen him call Kesler a 3rd liner, even if he has. I have seen a number of other people call him this, and that is who I was referring to when I posted.

10 seems pretty low, and 25 seems pretty high. 15 or so seems about right
- Bieksa#3

Yeah, I have him at around the 14-16 range.

See the edit in my post. I added it a while ago, but it still must have been after you quoted it.

I stated that you didn't say this, and that it was only a question in regards to discounting special teams production. So no, I'm not jumping to conclusions, just a general question in regards to discounting special teams production.

I'm not sure why you keep bringing up Bieksa#3.

I've never seen him call Kesler a 3rd liner, even if he has. I have seen a number of other people call him this, and that is who I was referring to when I posted.
- Fosco

Yeah my Kesler jersey was bought because I think he's a solid 3rd line center.

Totally agree. A lot of people say that AV never used Garrison on the PP, but he actually had him on the 2nd unit last year, but the issue was that AV usually kept his first unit on for about 90 seconds of most PP's, and the second unit lacked the skill and time to work with to actually set up in the offensive zone so Garrison was a non-factor on the PP.
- Nucker101

No offense, but did you even watch last season? AV didn't use the guy at all for the better part of the year and then only sporadically. Newell. Brown deserved to be fitted just for that alon.

edit edit: kesler has 36- 5+5 points in his last 98 regular season games. Not bad but not that great. Your stats are from 3 seasons ago. My stats are from that point on.
- boonerbuck

My stats were from when the three together had their best output.

I think we all know that there would be a few asterisks if you used Kesler's stats from the last two seasons.


I was questioning the merit of removing Kesler's special teams production.

To me, all it says is that when Kesler has legit top6 linemates he produces better, and likely would have at even strength, as well.

Bottom line is that they need to find him better linemates before he can be expected to produce like he did in 09/10 and 10/11, because neither the Sedins or the PP are likely to be that good again, so it will have to come at ES.

No offense, but did you even watch last season? AV didn't use the guy at all for the better part of the year and then only sporadically. Newell. Brown deserved to be fitted just for that alon.
- kaptaan

None taken, yes I did watch and from what I can remember the first unit usually dominated the PP ice time with about 90 seconds of 120 used and then the second unit usually had about 30 seconds and rarely got set up for much zone time, that was the unit Garrison was on, it wasn't every game but it was for more than 50% of time IIRC. Saying he didn't get used at all on the PP is an exaggeration, but the bottom line is that he was grossly misused on the PP.

Yeah my Kesler jersey was bought because I think he's a solid 3rd line center.
- Bieksa#3

Again, I've never seen you say this, so I'm not sure why it was brought up.

My stats were from when the three together had their best output.

I think we all know that there would be a few asterisks if you used Kesler's stats from the last two seasons.


I was questioning the merit of removing Kesler's special teams production.

To me, all it says is that when Kesler has legit top6 linemates he produces better, and likely would have at even strength, as well.

Bottom line is that they need to find him better linemates before he can be expected to produce like he did in 09/10 and 10/11, because neither the Sedins or the PP are likely to be that good again.
- Fosco

Good post

See the edit in my post. I added it a while ago, but it still must have been after you quoted it.

I stated that you didn't say this, and that it was only a question in regards to discounting special teams production. So no, I'm not jumping to conclusions, just a general question in regards to discounting special teams production.

I'm not sure why you keep bringing up Bieksa#3.

I've never seen him call Kesler a 3rd liner, even if he has. I have seen a number of other people call him this, and that is who I was referring to when I posted.
- Fosco

Weird,,, I must of clicked quote just as you posted the edit.... or didnt see...


Your question about the Sedins and the 2nd line just didnt add up because no one was comparing Keslers numbers to suggest he wasnt a 2nd???? Strange question to open with then... No harm no foul...

I think everyone here agrees that Raymond sucks, right? He was a fanbase whipping boy for the past few years for his lack of production/consistency...

Well, since the beginning of the 2011/12 season, Mason Raymond has played in 114 games including payoffs (1,489 mins of ES TOI). His role/opportunity varied from top 6 to 4th line. In that time he managed 17 goals & 22 assists @ ES. Meh. Yeah, that kinda sucks.

Over that same period, Ryan Kesler has played 107 games (1,550 mins of ES TOI) centering a top 6 line. He has 17 goals & 23 assists @ ES over that span.

Just some numbers for y'all to think about...
- DrChristianTroy

So what you're saying is if Kesler goes to Toronto he'll turn into top shelf franchise fanboy drool material?

I think the proof that Kesler is a great player will come in February 2014.

None taken, yes I did watch and from what I can remember the first unit usually dominated the PP ice time with about 90 seconds of 120 used and then the second unit usually had about 30 seconds and rarely got set up for much zone time, that was the unit Garrison was on, it wasn't every game but it was for more than 50% of time IIRC. Saying he didn't get used at all on the PP is an exaggeration, but the bottom line is that he was grossly misused on the PP.
- Nucker101

Garrison wasnt even on the power play for a while at first. Thats exactly what I meant about him watching from the bench at first. It may have only been a week or two but it was ahead scratcher. Then he was used sparingly. Thats how I remember it... although vaguely.

On a sidenote, I've read in a few places that the 2015 draft entry class is projecting to be "very very good." Make of that what you will.

Keslord/ Beast Mode those trophies and awards would look nice right beside all the Stanley Cups he has won.
- VANTEL

are you trolling this thread?

Monahan looks like the real deal
- Bieksa#3

This year's rookie class looks solid.

Again, I've never seen you say this, so I'm not sure why it was brought up.
- Fosco

I assume you know what Im talking about because I already explained it earlier. Bieksa keeps saying I said Kesler is a 3rd liner. He said it the other day as well as I've explained already. Im saying that most of the talk on this topic isnt about people saying it,,,, more a case of the seeds being planted by someone. On the other hand, you say you remember people saying it the other day so Im not sure if words are being taken out of context or not but basing by what Im seeing in this thread, it may be a case.

I'll admit I used the word tragedy the other day when we were all talking about the 2nd line's offense the last couple of seasons but that suggests a lack of offense, why would that mean playing Kesler in a 3rd line role? Thats not going to help him score. Im not sure why Bieksa keeps bringing it up aside from trying to add some excitement to the recent threads. He asked me who would replace Kesler the 2nd line center? Right now, nobody. Dead topic. Off topic... his topic.