Anybody still wanna dispute that bernier is the starter?

I love Reims, but bernier is the stud goalie we've been missing for a long time
- Dozzer

Too early to say.

Reimer has had two pretty solid half seasons.

Bernier has had one and a half good games.

After three games it looks like Bernier has non of Reimer's flaws (glove hand, rebound issues, puck handling issues) but it's so early.

I'll never buy into it. It's an imperfect stat. In fact, I don't even know where our stats rank in these "advanced" stats, nor do I care.
- systemtool

that's fine. but it's the way you dismiss it so condescendingly that's odd. you misunderstand the value the people place in them. these stats don't say IF YOU HAVE GOOD STATS YOU ARE A GOOD TEAM. they say IF YOU HAVE GOOD STATS, YOU HAVE A MUCH HIGHER CHANCE OF BEING A GOOD TEAM. that's it. the Leafs advanced stats last year were the worst in the NHL. but clearly, they were a decent team. similarly, the Devils were i believe ranked second overall in that Corsi/Fenwick stuff. but anyone who watched NJ play knows that they sucked. so yes, there are anomalies. but if you look at the overall rankings of these stats, they paint a pretty good picture of which teams were successful and which were not.

teams in the top 10: Boston, Chicago, LA, Montreal, St. Louis... teams that finished pretty high. teams in the bottom 10: Calgary, Philly, Buffalo, Edmonton, TBay, Columbus.

they're interesting stats and ultimately, everyone wants their team to have positive numbers in those areas.

Alright, no sense trying to have a civlized conversation when all you want to do is wave the win around.
- Talkshowhost

Carlos agrees...

Why? It's just tracking shot differential. More shots is good, means you have the puck more. Leafs ended up having the puck more overall, and won a hockey game. Why is it so useless?
- Talkshowhost

It doesn't mean you have the puck more, it means you shoot the puck more, there is a difference.

If you have a team with players that are accurate shooters, why shouldn't they cradle the disc a little longer in search of a higher percentage shot. As long as they can keep it off opposing players sticks, they have a natural advantage in play.

Relax, Francis.

It was a good game for both squads.

Except Reimer.
- Atomic Wedgie

And Ranger.

Alright, no sense trying to have a civlized conversation when all you want to do is wave the win around.
- Talkshowhost

In the end it's all that matters though.

Nobody will care at the end of the season about how the sens played at even strength if they come up a point shy of home ice advantage or even the entire playoffs

Actually Ottawa being strong at 5v5 earned them a point though, so it did matter.
- Talkshowhost

It also gave their rivals, our team, 2 points. And that's all that matters to any of us here. Congrats on the pity loser point though. I would be disappointed if that were my team blowing a 4-2 lead and losing the game. Point or no point.

Le sigh une.

It's also pointless when you want to hide your loss in your back pocket and throw 5 on 5 crap around.
- systemtool

hide the loss? I really don't understand you.

You can take positives from a loss, especially a game that went to a shootout.

And on the same note, you can take negatives from a win.

I strongly believe Nonis had one model in mind: Build a team that can beat the Bruins consistently. Dominate the Bruins and the rest of the East shouldn't be a problem.
We'll see how his model works out this season.

Leafs look good so far.
- Captain_Quiffe

Burke had the vision of a truculent Leaf team. He just couldn't get the on ice product to deliver. He did lay the ground work I'll give him credit for that. Nonis had a patient plan when he took over. He has brought the Leafs to the next level that Burke was not able to do.


Leafs now can match the B's on any game night.

In the end it's all that matters though.

Nobody will care at the end of the season about how the sens played at even strength if they come up a point shy of home ice advantage or even the entire playoffs
- Dozzer

This guy gets it!

Burke had the vision of a truculent Leaf team. He just couldn't get the on ice product to deliver. He did lay the ground work I'll give him credit for that. Nonis had a patient plan when he took over. He has brought the Leafs to the next level that Burke was not able to do.
- GCHonda

I wouldn't say Burke wasn't unable to do it, I just don't think he got enough credit for the groundwork and was fired prematurely.

It doesn't mean you have the puck more, it means you shoot the puck more, there is a difference.

If you have a team with players that are accurate shooters, why shouldn't they cradle the disc a little longer in search of a higher percentage shot. As long as they can keep it off opposing players sticks, they have a natural advantage in play.
- The Shrike

It's a proxy for possession, you have to have the puck to shoot it.

Too early to say.

Reimer has had two pretty solid half seasons.

Bernier has had one and a half good games.

After three games it looks like Bernier has non of Reimer's flaws (glove hand, rebound issues, puck handling issues) but it's so early.
- daeth

Sigh.. Ok. Sorry but reimer is too up and down. The entire team plays better with bernier is net. The rise in the confidence level of the team is pretty obvious.

It doesn't mean you have the puck more, it means you shoot the puck more, there is a difference.

If you have a team with players that are accurate shooters, why shouldn't they cradle the disc a little longer in search of a higher percentage shot. As long as they can keep it off opposing players sticks, they have a natural advantage in play.
- The Shrike

Jason Blake shot the puck a lot.

On that basis alone, the stat sux.

Bernier, Raymond, Bolland....never thought we would steal guys like this in the offseason...

YES NONIS!

In the end it's all that matters though.

Nobody will care at the end of the season about how the sens played at even strength if they come up a point shy of home ice advantage or even the entire playoffs
- Dozzer

Yeah they would, you could point to a lousy PK or PP as part of the reason, they missed probably.

Do you not think the Leafs vastly improved PK has anything to do with their success? They have a really good PK.

Sigh.. Ok. Sorry but reimer is too up and down. The entire team plays better with bernier is net. The rise in the confidence level of the team is pretty obvious.
- Dozzer

This.

hide the loss? I really don't understand you.

You can take positives from a loss, especially a game that went to a shootout.

And on the same note, you can take negatives from a win.
- Talkshowhost

Don't understand what?

What is hard to understand here is how anyone can be happy or feel good about positives after losing. Nobody should ever feel good about a loss. Ever. Well, unless you're a severe and massive underdog nobody ever gave a chance.

Maybe that's whats going on here? You think so little of the Sens, have no faith in them, and hold the Leafs in such high regard that you think losing is a positive.

Sigh.. Ok. Sorry but reimer is too up and down. The entire team plays better with bernier is net. The rise in the confidence level of the team is pretty obvious.
- Dozzer

In the end you may be correct but it's been three games. You can't really draw any conclusion on Bernier after three games, or at least I can't.

Yeah they would, you could point to a lousy PK or PP as part of the reason, they missed probably.

Do you not think the Leafs vastly improved PK has anything to do with their success? They have a really good PK.
- Talkshowhost

It's part of their success. But you don't succeed in this league without being good in all areas of the game.

Back to advanced stats:

My main issue with advanced stats is how they are being used as the gospel rather than as complimentary stats. A system based solely on shots will always be flawed, especially when the league doesn't even record the distance of each shot or the quality of said shot in any official capacity. Even if they did it'd still be ignoring player shooting ability (ie a Kessel shot is not equal to an Orr shot), PK, PP, and goaltending among other things.

You could predict the outcome of a game simply by looking at the W-L trends of both teams over their last 20 games just as easily as you could from Corsi. Probably more so.

Don't understand what?

What is hard to understand here is how anyone can be happy or feel good about positives after losing. Nobody should ever feel good about a loss. Ever. Well, unless you're a severe and massive underdog nobody ever gave a chance.

Maybe that's whats going on here? You think so little of the Sens, have no faith in them, and hold the Leafs in such high regard that you think losing is a positive.
- systemtool

You're weird dude, you've never saw the Leafs lose and said " well they played well it just didn't go their way tonight?"

Hockey is often a close game, and two teams can play very well and one has to lose now because of the shootout.

that's fine. but it's the way you dismiss it so condescendingly that's odd. you misunderstand the value the people place in them. these stats don't say IF YOU HAVE GOOD STATS YOU ARE A GOOD TEAM. they say IF YOU HAVE GOOD STATS, YOU HAVE A MUCH HIGHER CHANCE OF BEING A GOOD TEAM. that's it. the Leafs advanced stats last year were the worst in the NHL. but clearly, they were a decent team. similarly, the Devils were i believe ranked second overall in that Corsi/Fenwick stuff. but anyone who watched NJ play knows that they sucked. so yes, there are anomalies. but if you look at the overall rankings of these stats, they paint a pretty good picture of which teams were successful and which were not.

teams in the top 10: Boston, Chicago, LA, Montreal, St. Louis... teams that finished pretty high. teams in the bottom 10: Calgary, Philly, Buffalo, Edmonton, TBay, Columbus.

they're interesting stats and ultimately, everyone wants their team to have positive numbers in those areas.
- DoubleDown

Interesting stats are cute, but (frank) if Im going to judge my team on them or make excuses for them using those stats when they lose games. I want my team to have positive numbers in the standings. This stat here and that stat there mean female genitalia all to me if my team sucks. Many people don't believe in those stats, so not everyone buys into them.

Yeah they would, you could point to a lousy PK or PP as part of the reason, they missed probably.

Do you not think the Leafs vastly improved PK has anything to do with their success? They have a really good PK.
- Talkshowhost

It's a huge plus. Carlyle came in and started changing personnel and team philosophy. Took some time to the guys to grasp it but they seem like now they've bought in.

You're weird dude, you've never saw the Leafs lose and said " well they played well it just didn't go their way tonight?"

Hockey is often a close game, and two teams can play very well and one has to lose now because of the shootout.
- Talkshowhost

No.

When my team loses, it sucks. Always.