While I respect the point you're making, I really doubt the Flyers have a real shortage of real scoring ability.

IMO, the problem right now is that they're not creating enough second/third-chance opps. They're trying to corner pick, combo pass, and needle thread their way to goals... and as you stated, they don't have enough of those kinds of players to really pull that off consistently.

Lavi's right... they need more pucks on net for starters. If they can't even do that, then they're going to continue to make goalies look great.
- Tomahawk

That was definitely the problem in the 3rd priod of game 1. When a team has a lead and is going to sit back in a defensive posture, the fancy passing plays off the rush, aren't going to be there. Need to number one, get pucks to the net, and crash the net, and look for second and third chances. Especially when a Goalie is as on his game as Bernier was. They didn't do a good enough job of that in the game.

The whole issue to me with the scoring comes down to one thing.

They continously try to be too fancy instead of just crashing the net. Look a Calgary last night, scoring 4 goals in regulation against Washington.

Giroux, for as gifted as he is, is chronically guilty in all of this as much as anyone.

Its also why they struggle so much against the defense first teams. Teams that tend to have players drop down to the goal, and force attacking teams to try and outwork them down low.
- flyer_nutter

we also need a sniper

That's what happens when you struggle to pass the puck out your own zone and to make it thru the neutral zone thanks to an overly large gap between the forwards and the defensemen, while allowing other teams to waltz into your own zone after the three man forecheck fails to retrieve the puck yet again.
- Feanor

They controlled all three zones in the Leafs game for 40 solid minutes and still couldn't score at ES. The breakout is part of it, but not the entire story.

This is one of those statements that statistical analysis says isn't as true as what you think you're seeing.

The Flyers last year, through 48 games, scored 0.86 goals per game at even strength.

That was tied for 25th in the league. The PP made the Flyers offense look a lot better -- not a little better, but a LOT better -- than it was last year.

Seriously. They scored fewer goals at even strength than perennially offensively challenged teams like Nashville (0.91) and Minnesota (0.88).

I'm a fan. I want them to win. But telling myself "this team has plenty of scoring," well...they might not. How long do you have to not score at 5v5 before people acknowledge that maybe, just maybe, you can't?
- AllInForFlyers

Well it is my belief the issues that caused the poor 5 on 5 play were addressed this year. IMO it was lack of a puck movers on defense that cause too many turnovers and time in the defensive zone. They added Streit, Lecavalier, 2 goalies capable of setting up the puck, and have Meszaros back.

we also need a sniper
- 2Real

Another offensivelly talented forward with a questionable defensive game?

Slap my ass and sign me up!

Zherdev where are thou?

They controlled all three zones in the Leafs game for 40 solid minutes and still couldn't score at ES. The breakout is part of it, but not the entire story.
- Tomahawk

One factor of play is never the entire story. They just didn't finish on the opportunities they did have. And failed to generate enough dirty but good chances in the 3rd. They looked a lot better in some areas. But there is still work left to do.

Again, have to look a why they didn't score. The statistics you provided can't tell you that. This team has plenty of offensive talent. They didn't score well at ES for a reason. And it wasn't because they didn't have enough offensive talent. They've already added Lecavalier and Streit to the offensive mix. They have more then enough offensive talent.
- MJL

You keep saying that. You keep acting like there's a difference over that large a sample size.

You keep saying "they have more than enough offensive talent."

Again, there's the matter of PRODUCTION. You keep equating your perceptions of "offensive talent" with real-world production -- and it's not the same. It's the very core of what makes fans overvalue players on their favorite teams.

If the Flyers have "more than enough offensive talent," then by all means, answer this question: What did 13 of the top 16 highest-scoring teams in the NHL at even strength have in common last season?

I'll answer that one for you: Those 13 teams all made the playoffs.

Again: Just because you don't see the problem doesn't mean there isn't one.

we also need a sniper
- 2Real

?

You keep saying that. You keep acting like there's a difference over that large a sample size.

You keep saying "they have more than enough offensive talent."

Again, there's the matter of PRODUCTION. You keep equating your perceptions of "offensive talent" with real-world production -- and it's not the same. It's the very core of what makes fans overvalue players on their favorite teams.

If the Flyers have "more than enough offensive talent," then by all means, answer this question: What did 13 of the top 16 highest-scoring teams in the NHL at even strength have in common last season?

I'll answer that one for you: Those 13 teams all made the playoffs.

Again: Just because you don't see the problem doesn't mean there isn't one.
- AllInForFlyers

So what you are saying is the franchise tends to overvalue and overestimate its players, while handing out big money?

Another offensivelly talented forward with a questionable defensive game?

Slap my ass and sign me up!

Zherdev where are thou?
- flyer_nutter

sometimes you need that person and zherdev had talent but no desire i'm talking about someone who plays like stamkos

So what you are saying is the franchise tends to overvalue and overestimate its players, while handing out big money?
- flyer_nutter

Ha! What I'm saying is that there is very real danger is saying "oh, this team will score" when...they haven't.

Given a large enough sample size, numbers do not lie. They simply do not.

You keep saying that. You keep acting like there's a difference over that large a sample size.

You keep saying "they have more than enough offensive talent."

Again, there's the matter of PRODUCTION. You keep equating your perceptions of "offensive talent" with real-world production -- and it's not the same. It's the very core of what makes fans overvalue players on their favorite teams.

If the Flyers have "more than enough offensive talent," then by all means, answer this question: What did 13 of the top 16 highest-scoring teams in the NHL at even strength have in common last season?

I'll answer that one for you: Those 13 teams all made the playoffs.

Again: Just because you don't see the problem doesn't mean there isn't one.
- AllInForFlyers

I'll clarify for you. I see the problem, I just don't agree with you what is the cause of the problem. I think you're misguided in thinking that it is a lack of offensive talent. Again, need to look at why the Flyers had an issue scoring at ES last year. And it coincides with the defensive issues they had at ES last year. And the teams overall play at ES. So let's add Radim Vrbata, and he'll magically fix all that!

This team has Giroux, Hartnell, Voracek, Simmonds, Read, Lecavalier, who are all capable of scoring 25+ goals and 50+ points. How many teams can match that? And then there's whatever secondary offense Schenn, Couturier, and Talbot can add. And then there's proven point producers on the defense in Streit and Timonen.

You keep saying that. You keep acting like there's a difference over that large a sample size.

You keep saying "they have more than enough offensive talent."

Again, there's the matter of PRODUCTION. You keep equating your perceptions of "offensive talent" with real-world production -- and it's not the same. It's the very core of what makes fans overvalue players on their favorite teams.

If the Flyers have "more than enough offensive talent," then by all means, answer this question: What did 13 of the top 16 highest-scoring teams in the NHL at even strength have in common last season?

I'll answer that one for you: Those 13 teams all made the playoffs.

Again: Just because you don't see the problem doesn't mean there isn't one.
- AllInForFlyers

Not sure the lockout season and one game makes for a sufficient sample size, though.

Flyers were top-echelon in ES goal differential under Lavi and Homer up until things started to go wonky on them.

My theory is that the constant state of always having to find new offensive chemistry from year to year caused by massive player turnover is starting to catch up with them. And instead of letting things come together organically, their solution is to throw yet a few more ingredients into the mix.

This team has no chemistry at all. This has to be the worst passing team in the league and no creativity at all besides G,Vinny and Jake. Long year coming guys no matter who's coaching.

Ha! What I'm saying is that there is very real danger is saying "oh, this team will score" when...they haven't.

Given a large enough sample size, numbers do not lie. They simply do not.
- AllInForFlyers

Nobody has refuted that the Flyers had trouble scoring last year at ES. Or that the numbers lie. The question is what is the cause, and how is it fixed. I know what it takes for a team to score in the NHL.

Ha! What I'm saying is that there is very real danger is saying "oh, this team will score" when...they haven't.

Given a large enough sample size, numbers do not lie. They simply do not.
- AllInForFlyers

To me, they are what they are. Its only one game though.

Either way, they are up to their ass against the cap. Most expensive defense core in the NHL.

To suggest that management does over-value its players, and in turn give out excessive contracts isnt too crazy imo. Whatever the hell happens with this team this year, I am done with looking at the players, or coaching. One or the other has been at blame since the "NEW" NHL. Maybe its time to look at those who put all this poop together. Management.

This team has no chemistry at all. This has to be the worst passing team in the league and no creativity at all besides G,Vinny and Jake. Long year coming guys no matter who's coaching.
- hatcher

Not sure the lockout season and one game makes for a sufficient sample size, though.

Flyers were top-echelon in ES goal differential under Lavi and Homer up until things started to go wonky on them.

My theory is that the constant state of always having to find new offensive chemistry from year to year caused by massive player turnover is starting to catch up with them. And instead of letting things come together organically, their solution is to throw yet a few more ingredients into the mix.
- Tomahawk

Sounds about right to me. The individual talent to produce is there, but the cohesion, which has been mentioned many times before, is not quite where it needs to be. But there is still time for that to develop.

Not sure the lockout season and one game makes for a sufficient sample size, though.

Flyers were top-echelon in ES goal differential under Lavi and Homer up until things started to go wonky on them.

My theory is that the constant state of always having to find new offensive chemistry from year to year caused by massive player turnover is starting to catch up with them. And instead of letting things come together organically, their solution is to throw yet a few more ingredients into the mix.
- Tomahawk

When you're a team like the Flyers that missed the playoffs last year. You don't stand pat. You look to improve the team.

I find it rather amusing that people beat this "giroux can't have another playmaker on his line" drum when talking about putting voracek on what again? The third line? Totally retarded move coach...
Giroux had to a of success with jake there and jäger before him... One "playmaker" on a line tells the opposition to shutdown said playmaker and render the other two useless. Furthermore giroux is such a dynamic player that having another talented player in his line should be the least of anyone's worries... Unreal

?
- Tomahawk

Is this a history class?

Sounds about right to me. The individual talent to produce is there, but the cohesion, which has been mentioned many times before, is not quite where it needs to be. But there is still time for that to develop.
- mcefalu

That's right. I said it before the Season started. They need to improve and become a better team. Rather then just a collection of good players. I think they made a good start with that in game 1.

And by the way: I don't want anybody saying that I said "Radim Vrbata" is the answer to all things Flyer-related.

I just contrasted another player on another team. Not sure why every time I do that, it's like I'm saying "Bring in that guy, right now!"

You keep saying that. You keep acting like there's a difference over that large a sample size.

You keep saying "they have more than enough offensive talent."

Again, there's the matter of PRODUCTION. You keep equating your perceptions of "offensive talent" with real-world production -- and it's not the same. It's the very core of what makes fans overvalue players on their favorite teams.

If the Flyers have "more than enough offensive talent," then by all means, answer this question: What did 13 of the top 16 highest-scoring teams in the NHL at even strength have in common last season?

I'll answer that one for you: Those 13 teams all made the playoffs.

Again: Just because you don't see the problem doesn't mean there isn't one.
- AllInForFlyers

facts only matter when they agree w/ an opinion....

this team is not loaded w/ guys that convert certain types of chances. if jake continues to stick w/ the shooters mentality, he and G are the only plyrs that the flyers can bank on for 30+ goals. otherwise, they better crash the net and p/u rebounds.

When you're a team like the Flyers that missed the playoffs last year. You don't stand pat. You look to improve the team.
- MJL

A recipe that's worked to perfection for 40-years.