I very rarely look at those numbers, sure they are useful tools when applied correctly. There are too many advanced stats. I don't want hockey going the way of baseball where there are pencil protector geeks crunching every number known to man. The eye test may be old fashioned, but it is still one of the best tools used to evaluate.
- PLindbergh31

I agree, I was being sarcastic. Like MJL said, if all you're interested in is stats, then why even watch the game?

I don't need advanced stats to show me that guys like Rinaldo don't belong in the game. It just solidifies my stance.
- bradleyc4

You should stick to the European game.

I agree, I was being sarcastic. Like MJL said, if all you're interested in is stats, then why even watch the game?
- jmatchett383

Well yeah. If all anyone does is pay attention to stats, might as well have robot hockey.

I agree, I was being sarcastic. Like MJL said, if all you're interested in is stats, then why even watch the game?
- jmatchett383

Some in the advanced stats community want to lower the game down to 1 +1 =2. Well when the Flyers played the Soviet Red Army team back in the 70's, what team do you think was the better Corsi team? But yet who won and why? Hits are bad but the Flyers when playing Bobby Orr and the Bruins in the playoffs, went with a strategy of dumping the puck to Orr's side, to make him chase it, and to target him physically. To wear him down and tire him out. Hits and physical play is cumulative in a game. Even more so in a 7 game playoff series. Physical play provides a spark and can lift the emotional level of a team. It can make defenseman hurry passes and turn the puck over. A player like Rinaldo is part of that.

Regarding Rinaldo, I think there is definitely a place for him on the Flyers, and places for players like him in the NHL. Rinaldo isn't a one trick pony. My issue is with the guys who are staged fighters. No place in the NHL for those kinds of players imo.

Rinaldo has good skating ability, he hits everything that moves, has a little skill, and will stick up for his teammates. As long as he plays with a modicum of discipline, his energy is refreshing to see.

Well yeah. If all anyone does is pay attention to stats, might as well have robot hockey.
- PLindbergh31

I would watch robot hockey. Is that wrong?

Oh, and I do think there's room for different ways to look at the game. Some of the newer stats are just different ways to look at the game. Not necessarily better ways, but different ways.

I don't think there's a problem with advanced stats. I think there's a problem that folks apply them and use them as pronouncements rather than making it a part of a conversation.

I would watch robot hockey. Is that wrong?

Oh, and I do think there's room for different ways to look at the game. Some of the newer stats are just different ways to look at the game. Not necessarily better ways, but different ways.

I don't think there's a problem with advanced stats. I think there's a problem that folks apply them and use them as pronouncements rather than making it a part of a conversation.
- johndewar

I agree. They have some use, and offers some additional insight. But it's not be all to end all that it's made out to be. I think there's a lot of flaws involved with a lot of it, that is not considered. And the biggest issue is definitely the mis-use of the stats. But the same can be said for more traditional stats such as +/-.

Go tell your pal Harvey, he needs Tommy John surgery.

Eugene Melnyk hacked them all?
- BulliesPhan87

Bill Meltzer: Meltzer's Musings: Rinaldo, Simmonds, Quick Hits
- bmeltzer

Flyers have never replaced the Beast

The Flyers beat writers just got better, at least

http://www.crossingbroad....-by-the-courier-post.html

I know that Bill likes Randy Miller on a personal level, but his unprofessionalism in dealing with readers via social media, as well as his attacks on Bryzgalov following the buyout mean his termination is well deserved, IMO.

Flyers have never replaced the Beast
- Jsaquella

morin

morin
- Crimsoninja

If he's half as good as McCrimmon was, he'll be a very solid defenseman in the NHL

morin
- Crimsoninja

Pencil him right now on the top pair with Kimmo

There's a time and place for them, like I mentioned in my previous comment to you. I'm saying that if "hits" is one of your best traits, you're not a very good NHL player.
- bradleyc4

Was hits one of Lindros's better traits?

Sure he could do other things but he was as feared for his hitting/physical play as anything else he did.

also note I am not in anyway comparing Lindros to Rinaldo just saying I don't understand how you are saying if hits is one of your best traits you arent very good.

Was hits one of Lindros's better traits?

Sure he could do other things but he was as feared for his hitting/physical play as anything else he did.

also note I am not in anyway comparing Lindros to Rinaldo just saying I don't understand how you are saying if hits is one of your best traits you arent very good.
- opeth_pa

Chris Pronger and Mike Richards are other examples of good players who were also known for their hitting.

pretty sure he was talking about players whose #1 best trait is hitting...not just players who were good body checkers

pretty sure he was talking about players whose #1 best trait is hitting...not just players who were good body checkers
- Crimsoninja

He said if hitting was among their best traits. The three players we just mentioned have other qualities that make them great players for sure, but I'd say hitting is among their top qualities.

He said if hitting was among their best traits. The three players we just mentioned have other qualities that make them great players for sure, but I'd say hitting is among their top qualities.
- BulliesPhan87

And really when looking at all around good or top players, versus role players, isn't that what separates them? Good players are good at numerous aspects of the game. Top players are even better at certain aspects and more of them. But role players generally fill a niche. And generally are proficient at one aspect of the game. Such as the case with Rinaldo. He is in the NHL, due to his physical play. That's how he made it, and that's his forte. Doesn't make him a bad player. It certainly limits his ability as a player. But there's been a lot of players in the NHL who made a decent living and had a good career based on being good at one aspect of the game. That's what makes up a team. If Corsi numbers were all that mattered, teams wouldn't employ physical stay at home one dimensional defenseman. But we all know that is an important player on a team. And a blend and mix of players is what makes up a team.

some fear what they do not understand

some fear what they do not understand
- Crimsoninja

Care to expand on that thought?

Advanced stats can be a useful tool. But like any other tool they can be mis-used.

Corsi rating is just one of many, many tools that come in the advanced, or "new" stats toolbag. Simply dismissing the whole toolbag by dismissing Corsi or calling all advanced stats "Corsi" is being foolish.

If I'm trying to build a house, I want to have every tool available. Doesn't mean I'm going to use a hammer to install the windows.

That said, some proponents of advanced stats certainly do undervalue actually watching the games. At the very least, I want to see some footage of a player along with his advanced numbers.

Too many people, on BOTH SIDES of the debate tend to dismiss the positives that each approach to evaluation brings.

And for the record, I like what Rinaldo brings. His value is not really quantified by numbers. There is no reliable stat to show how his aggressive play, physicality and agitation get opposing players off their games outside of penalties drawn.

That is Rinaldo's main job. As Fred Shero once said of Bob "Hound" Kelly, "If somebody's got Kelly scoring twenty goals, they're not using him right". Rinaldo's game isn't puck possession, but if he's getting opponents off their game and drawing penalties and PP opportunities at a higher rate than he's taking them, then he's a beneficial player.

I don't need advanced stats to show me that guys like Rinaldo don't belong in the game. It just solidifies my stance.
- bradleyc4

Ok, I'll throw some advanced stats at you. Rinaldo uses his hitting to draw penalties, and last season, he drew 3.2 penalties for every 60 minutes he was on the ice. The Flyers had a 21.6 PP% last season. That means that through the penalties he drew (due to his hitting, most of the time), we can say that he helped create 0.6912 goals for every 60 minutes he was on the ice (Or at least we can say that 0.6912 goals/60 probably wouldn't have happened without him). And he did that just from being a pest to the other team. Through traditional scoring, he helped create 0.9 goals for every 60 minutes he played (G/60 + A/60). For a 4th liner who's main purpose on the ice is to provide energy, fight, and essentially fill time while other lines rest, being a key piece in 1.5912 goals/60 mins played isn't bad at all. Under the same equation (5v5 P/60mins + [Penalties Drawn/60mins * 0.216]) Claude Giroux was a key piece in 2.4804 goals/60 mins. Zac is also 23, and this was sort of the 1st year in his renaissance (of sorts), so any numbers he posts now are only bound to improve. Look for the amount of penalties he draws to increase, while the number of penalties he takes declines. I could definitely see him becoming a less psychotic, and maybe more offensively productive version of Patrick Kaleta.

The Flyers beat writers just got better, at least

http://www.crossingbroad....-by-the-courier-post.html

I know that Bill likes Randy Miller on a personal level, but his unprofessionalism in dealing with readers via social media, as well as his attacks on Bryzgalov following the buyout mean his termination is well deserved, IMO.
- Jsaquella

between the hemorrhaging of readers and his twitter meltdown, this was predictable.

Advanced stats can be a useful tool. But like any other tool they can be mis-used.

Corsi rating is just one of many, many tools that come in the advanced, or "new" stats toolbag. Simply dismissing the whole toolbag by dismissing Corsi or calling all advanced stats "Corsi" is being foolish.

If I'm trying to build a house, I want to have every tool available. Doesn't mean I'm going to use a hammer to install the windows.

That said, some proponents of advanced stats certainly do undervalue actually watching the games. At the very least, I want to see some footage of a player along with his advanced numbers.

Too many people, on BOTH SIDES of the debate tend to dismiss the positives that each approach to evaluation brings.

And for the record, I like what Rinaldo brings. His value is not really quantified by numbers. There is no reliable stat to show how his aggressive play, physicality and agitation get opposing players off their games outside of penalties drawn.

That is Rinaldo's main job. As Fred Shero once said of Bob "Hound" Kelly, "If somebody's got Kelly scoring twenty goals, they're not using him right". Rinaldo's game isn't puck possession, but if he's getting opponents off their game and drawing penalties and PP opportunities at a higher rate than he's taking them, then he's a beneficial player.
- Jsaquella

do these new advanced stats have some value? of corsi!