Yes but you need to win the faceoff first. Stamkos wins 0% of those. You also need a C on your sweater, Stamkos has an A
- sbroads24

he's not a LEADER!!

I've been around hockey for a long time. Played, coached, watched.

I understand your point, Stamkos more points equals better player. That's basically the only thing the people who pick Stamkos can say really. The people who pick Toews understand intangibles. I'm not gonna get into what it takes to be a complete player and what it takes to win (again, I've been explaining it for a while).

Like someone said earlier, their point totals for time on ice is actually equal. So if that's the case, and their offence is equal. Who us te better player. I would think the one with the excellent intangibles. The one Babcock is gonna put on the ice when the chips are down, in a pressure situation to win.


MacKinnon also has intangibles.

Answer my question please:

Name me something Toews doesn't excel at? I can name quite a few for Stamkos.
- robhawks

Toews does not EXCEL at offense, you speak as if he is an offensive brilliance..

toews is a solid all around player...

toews is good at offense...he doesn't excel at offense...steven stamkos excels aty offense....toews does not...toews may excel at defense, where stamkos does not...

saying toews excels at offense is like saying stamkos excels at defense...stamkos is good at defense, but he is far from excelling

Why is it difficult to grasp that some "abilities" or "intangibles" are much more important than others? Goal scoring is 100x as important as winning a faceoff and until you realize that there's no point going any further. Having intangibles is a fancy way of saying you do all the little things very well, things that make you an all around good player. Being an elite goal scorer is what makes you a superstar and league MVP. See the difference between intangibles (the little things) and goal scoring (the big thing) ??
- sbroads24

Little things... Look at the two top end plays Toews made on the tying goal in game 6 and tell me they are little... And tell me if Stamkos can do that on his best day.

Little things... like preventing goals... Because it doesn't matter how many you give up as long as you score more than the other guy.

This is my reasoning. Talk past it all you want, it only proves your ignorance.

The difference in scoring ability between the two is significantly less than the difference the two in every other facet of the game with Toews obviously being better.

Its really a question of Wilkins vs Jordan...

You remember that...i remember this x 2


- philco28

[quote=mrpaulish]
well that's that. stamkos sucks.

well that's that. stamkos sucks.
- Fountain-San

Thats a false dilemma I wouldn't pull in grammar school. Nice try...

Thats a false dilemma I wouldn't pull in grammar school. Nice try...
- busmaster

ummm. ok.

Thats a false dilemma I wouldn't pull in grammar school. Nice try...
- busmaster

it does seem the easy response to a debate like this though. just post your guy with the cup.

Also why no mention that Toews doesn't play with the Art Ross winner? You don't think St. Louis would help Toews' offensive game?
- rollpards19

You really aren't saying St. Louis makes stammer right?....
Stamkos makes St. Louis get his 40 assists this season.

Little things... Look at the two top end plays Toews made on the tying goal in game 6 and tell me they are little... And tell me if Stamkos can do that on his best day.

Little things... like preventing goals... Because it doesn't matter how many you give up as long as you score more than the other guy.

This is my reasoning. Talk past it all you want, it only proves your ignorance.

The difference in scoring ability between the two is significantly less than the difference the two in every other facet of the game with Toews obviously being better.

Its really a question of Wilkins vs Jordan...
- busmaster

Exactly. Toews sacrifices offence for his team and his defence. Have you seen some of the goals and plays he makes. His offence ability is high. He "chooses" to not always use it because he does everything.

I actually like Stamkos. Great goal scorer. Heck even a great player. All round not even close to Toews.

When you coach kids to play hockey you coach all aspects to make them elite.

There is elite goal scorer.
There is elite players.

I chose elite players.

Like Crosby. I choose him not Ovechkin.

I choose Daysyuk not Nash or Gaborik.



Yet Hawk fans are homers but we give you a list of great attributes.


TB fans aren't homers but only give one (goal scoring) attribute.


Interesting.

Little things... Look at the two top end plays Toews made on the tying goal in game 6 and tell me they are little... And tell me if Stamkos can do that on his best day.

Little things... like preventing goals... Because it doesn't matter how many you give up as long as you score more than the other guy.

This is my reasoning. Talk past it all you want, it only proves your ignorance.

The difference in scoring ability between the two is significantly less than the difference the two in every other facet of the game with Toews obviously being better.

Its really a question of Wilkins vs Jordan...
- busmaster

Trust me. IMO both are easily franchise players. Would love either, I just like Stamkos more

.1 PPG less for a guy who does everything else including kills penalties... All righty...

There aren't many metrics to measure individual defense, except to say that no one would ever put Stamkos even in the same stratosphere as Toews when it comes to that and about ten other categories.

But I guess it doesn't matter... you're just gonna come back and say points points points...
- busmaster

DUDE, he scored 60 goals;
60 goals and 96 pts>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 32 goals 76 pts

its not even close PT wise, sometimes, assists are really overvalued.

Trust me. IMO both are easily franchise players. Would love either, I just like Stamkos more
- sbroads24

No problem.

Can I ask you, without saying offence, what else makes Stamkos elite or franchise? Try not to assume he can learn, or maybe be a captain.


Yes, I do think Stamkos is a franchise player.
Only more to Toews game that is also elite.

DUDE, he scored 60 goals;
60 goals and 96 pts>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 32 goals 76 pts

its not even close PT wise, sometimes, assists are really overvalued.
- Danformo

There is the "goal" word again.

Hahahahaha.

Exactly. Toews sacrifices offence for his team and his defence. Have you seen some of the goals and plays he makes. His offence ability is high. He "chooses" to not always use it because he does everything.

I actually like Stamkos. Great goal scorer. Heck even a great player. All round not even close to Toews.

When you coach kids to play hockey you coach all aspects to make them elite.

There is elite goal scorer.
There is elite players.

I chose elite players.

Like Crosby. I choose him not Ovechkin.

I choose Daysyuk not Nash or Gaborik.



Yet Hawk fans are homers but we give you a list of great attributes.


TB fans aren't homers but only give one (goal scoring) attribute.


Interesting.
- robhawks

You act like Stamkos does literally nothing else but score goals, and Toews literally does EVERYTHING plus score goals. That's one hell if an inaccurate assessment

DUDE, he scored 60 goals;
60 goals and 96 pts>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 32 goals 76 pts

its not even close PT wise, sometimes, assists are really overvalued.
- Danformo

Over the career. Metrics-wise. Time in ice, offensive zone time etc etc.

You act like Stamkos does literally nothing else but score goals, and Toews literally does EVERYTHING plus score goals. That's one hell if an inaccurate assessment
- sbroads24

I'm sure he does. Except no one can say what that is. I ask but no one answers.

Trust me. IMO both are easily franchise players. Would love either, I just like Stamkos more
- sbroads24

Absolutely nothing wrong with that...

I'm sure he does. Except no one can say what that is. I ask but no one answers.
- robhawks

Better skater, playmaker, much better shot, better on the PP
All the attributes that made him 1 overall and a league MVP

I'm sure he does. Except no one can say what that is. I ask but no one answers.
- robhawks

better on his feet, going to the net. great playmaker. has the 82 game compete level that the great ones have.

the only thing missing is a ring and selke like defensive play.

You really aren't saying St. Louis makes stammer right?....
Stamkos makes St. Louis get his 40 assists this season.
- Danformo

No but he certainly makes him better. He's won the Art Ross with and without Stamkos. St Louis had a 100 point season without Stamkos too, but good to know you think Stamkos gets him all his points

From a purely talent-based evaluation, not using intangibles or leadership, or anything else unquantifiable:

STAMKOS
Strengths
Shot (++)
Offensive awareness of space (++)
Vision (+)
Top end speed (++)
Quickness and maneuverability (+)
Strength
Hands (+)
Stickhandling (+)
Power Play (++)
Signature move: One-timer from bottom of the left circle

Weaknesses
Defensive recognition (-)
Face-offs (-)
Ineffective on PK (-)
Shootouts (-)

TOEWS
Strengths
Defensive awareness (++)
Takeaways (++)
Faceoffs (++)
Shootouts (+)
Strength in possession (++)
Offensive positioning (+)
Power Play (+)
Penalty Killing (++)
Short range quickness (+)
Stickhandling (+)
Signature move: Stutter step

Weaknesses
Top end speed (-)
Shot (--)


Obviously they're both immense talents, and neither is a bad choice. For my money, I take Toews because I've always favored the players who willingly sacrifice offensive production to focus on rounding their game and therefore becoming more valuable overall (Yzerman, Datsyuk, etc.). They tend to win more championships too.

Last season's GVT numbers, for reference: http://hockeyprospectus.com/sortable/

better on his feet, going to the net. great playmaker. has the 82 game compete level that the great ones have.

the only thing missing is a ring and selke like defensive play.
- Fountain-San

Wow. Basically described Toews who is amazing on his skates. Skates amazing every direction.

But like I said, those attributes are debatable.

My question earlier was name Stamkos' great attributes without naming offense.

Crickets, crickets.



Toews has offense, defense, leadership, plus/minus, faceoffs etc etc.

Every a question is asked about Stamkos it's always the same response just in different words. He has more points.

This blog isn't about points.

From a purely talent-based evaluation, not using intangibles or leadership, or anything else unquantifiable:

STAMKOS
Strengths
Shot (++)
Offensive awareness of space (++)
Vision (+)
Top end speed (++)
Quickness and maneuverability (+)
Strength
Hands (+)
Stickhandling (+)
Power Play (++)
Signature move: One-timer from bottom of the left circle

Weaknesses
Defensive recognition (-)
Face-offs (-)
Ineffective on PK (-)
Shootouts (-)

TOEWS
Strengths
Defensive awareness (++)
Takeaways (++)
Faceoffs (++)
Shootouts (+)
Strength in possession (++)
Offensive positioning (+)
Power Play (+)
Penalty Killing (++)
Short range quickness (+)
Stickhandling (+)
Signature move: Stutter step

Weaknesses
Top end speed (-)
Shot (--)


Obviously they're both immense talents, and neither is a bad choice. For my money, I take Toews because I've always favored the players who willingly sacrifice offensive production to focus on rounding their game and therefore becoming more valuable overall (Yzerman, Datsyuk, etc.). They tend to win more championships too.

Last season's GVT numbers, for reference: http://hockeyprospectus.com/sortable/
- Sandus

So Toews shot is bad and he is slow? Ok.
Not really. There is more than a slipper in hockey boys.

So Toews shot is bad and he is slow? Ok.
Not really. There is more than a slipper in hockey boys.
- robhawks

Toews is not slow, but I wouldn't place him in the top 30% of skaters for top speed. In fact, I can name a dozen players on his own team who have a faster top speed. That's not his bread and butter, he's never going to beat a mobile defenseman to the outside without a move (enter: the amazing stutter step).

And yes, his shot is bad. When's the last time he sniped someone? His open-look goals tend to be low shots in stride that handcuff the goalie or catch him off guard.