Sure. 2 way standouts that also happen to have Norris trophy defensemen on their rosters as well

Bergeron- Chara
Toews - Keith
Datsyuk - Lidstrom

If Stamkos is on CHI they still win the cup.
So answer me this. Since you should build around 2 way centers you would have taken Sean Monahan number 1 overall over Mackinnon then right?
- sbroads24

Prove it. Give facts please.

You can build your team around Pavel Bure, or you can build your team around Steve Yzerman. Frankly, the Yzermans win cups. The Bures don't (barring they pull a Robitaille/Hull last ditch run). You see teams trying to build around these types again and again, but the formula is no good. Bure was a great player and a hella fun to watch, but I've got to go with Yzerman.

(So, in the same spirit, I am going with Toews because Stamkos isn't the type you build your team around.)
- Craola

I was thinking more like Bossy or Yzerman,

Bure is overrated

This just in: a guy who has over 200 goals and almost 400 points by the age of 23 is one of the top 3 players in the league
- sbroads24

And yet his collective +/- is darn near south of zero...

And yet his collective +/- is darn near south of zero...
- busmaster

look at the teams hes had,
if you had them switch teams all of Toews numbers would decrease,

but Stammers would increase

It's also common sense that its easier to develope a sound defensive game and get better on the dot like Stamkos will than it is to develope the ability to score 50-60 goals in a season. No offense but "intangibles" can be developed over time, natural goal scoring ability cannot. And yes I realize Toews can score his fair share
- sbroads24

Thanks for agreeing about Toews offence. Haha.

By the way, playing defence and winning faceoffs, some people will never learn that.

Also, leadership can't be taught.


I build a team to win cups, not score 5 goals a game and give up 6 goals a game.

I know Toews point totals don't show he is elite. But he still is an elite scorer, one that sacrifices his points for the good of his team. Yup, that's who I build around.

You are missing my point as well. An elite goal scorer like Stamkos is not easy to find.
If you are building a team, you can fill the void that Stamkos leaves you by having a center that can play the tough defensive, PK minutes . Like you said because of this Toews offensive production is held back a bit. However you can't just find goal scorers like Stamkos, you draft them number 1 overall.

I said this last night, if I am building a team, I take the elite goal scorer and try and find another center to play my tough defensive minutes.
- sbroads24

based on points per minute played Toews is just as elite as Stamkos. And unlike Stamkos he's top end at everything else on and off the ice. What then?

BTW in Hossa and Kane the Hawks have two other top-end goal scorers on the team when healthy. But while Tampa concentrates on getting fans in the seats with an exciting product, the Hawks guys are actually made to play defense.

You can only have one center on the ice with your first line. Do you want top end scoring, or top end scoring plus everything else? Your move.

What you said is an assumption. I could say Stamkos playing a full season away from Boucher and his 1-3-1 no forecheck style of defense he would score 75.
You still didn't answer my question. If a great 2 way center is more important to build around that elite scoring than you should of had Sean Monahan as your nber 1 pick right? You would have taken him over Mackinnon?
- sbroads24

This coming from the guy that said matter-of-factly that Stamkos would win the cup if swapped with Toews?

based on points per minute played Toews is just as elite as Stamkos. And unlike Stamkos he's top end at everything else on and off the ice. What then?

BTW in Hossa and Kane the Hawks have two other top-end goal scorers on the team when healthy. But while Tampa concentrates on getting fans in the seats with an exciting product, the Hawks guys are actually made to play defense.

You can only have one center on the ice with your first line. Do you want top end scoring, or top end scoring plus everything else? Your move.
- busmaster

Finally someone gets my point.

Player A - Top end scorer

Player B - Top end scorer plus top end everything else.


My choice is Player A. Hahahahahaha.
Oh yeah, the top Canadian coaches put Toews on the ice when it matters most regardless of situation. What do they know.

Darn Canadians. What do they know about hockey. Oh wait, I'm Canadian.

based on points per minute played Toews is just as elite as Stamkos. And unlike Stamkos he's top end at everything else on and off the ice. What then?

BTW in Hossa and Kane the Hawks have two other top-end goal scorers on the team when healthy. But while Tampa concentrates on getting fans in the seats with an exciting product, the Hawks guys are actually made to play defense.

You can only have one center on the ice with your first line. Do you want top end scoring, or top end scoring plus everything else? Your move.
- busmaster

Pts wise they may be close,
But I would rather take a 55 goal 80 PT season from Stamkos than a 30 goal 85 PT season from Toews

Pts wise they may be close,
But I would rather take a 55 goal 80 PT season from Stamkos than a 30 goal 85 PT season from Toews
- Danformo

Seriously?

Stamkos 55 goals but gives up 55 = 0

Toews 30 but gives up 5 = +25.

Hypothetical numbers of course.

And yet his collective +/- is darn near south of zero...
- busmaster

Yes because +/- is an important statistic. Thomas Vanek was a +47 one season... It's a team stat

Stamkos has a career 1.03 PPG
Toews has a career .91 PPG

Stamkos has 41 more goals in 35 less games than Toews. Stamkos is better offensively. Period no debate

Seriously?

Stamkos 55 goals but gives up 55 = 0

Toews 30 but gives up 5 = +25.

Hypothetical numbers of course.
- robhawks

You cannot look at a single players numbers to judge +/-
Compare the goalies, line mates, defense

Toews and Stamkos are two different players.

should be Kane vs Stamkos

I Can't wait to see Stamokos raise the cup in next couple years.. if he's that good.. should not be a problem.

Yes because +/- is an important statistic. Thomas Vanek was a +47 one season... It's a team stat

Stamkos has a career 1.03 PPG
Toews has a career .91 PPG

Stamkos has 41 more goals in 35 less games than Toews. Stamkos is better offensively. Period no debate
- sbroads24

Of course he is. That's all he does.

It's already been explained. Toews sacrifices points for all hockey aspects, for the better of the team.

Seriously?

Stamkos 55 goals but gives up 55 = 0

Toews 30 but gives up 5 = +25.

Hypothetical numbers of course.
- robhawks

Also why no mention of the fact that Toews gets to play with other excellent defensive forwards like Sharp or Hossa? You don't think having one of those guys on Stamkos wing might help his 2 way game?

Of course he is. That's all he does.

It's already been explained. Toews sacrifices points for all hockey aspects, for the better of the team.
- robhawks

Do you watch him play? You really think he's that one dimensional?

Lets try this a different way.


If you are in school and are required to do 10 essays.

1 essay you get 100 %. The other 9 essays you get 50's or maybe less.


Or


You hand in 10 essays that are all about 90% or higher.

Which situation is better for you?

Hahahaha. Sorry. Trying to think of ways to clarify.

Also why no mention of the fact that Toews gets to play with other excellent defensive forwards like Sharp or Hossa? You don't think having one of those guys on Stamkos wing might help his 2 way game?
- sbroads24

You are responsible for your own 2-way game.

Do you watch him play? You really think he's that one dimensional?
- sbroads24

I'm going by hat every person that picked Stamkos on here (including TB fans) have said. He scores more goals so he is better.

Read the comments.

The people who pick Toews have so much to add to their reasons.

By the way, nobody has answered my question yet......

Name me something Toews doesn't excel at?


Ok, here I'll help......I heard Toews glove hand isn't quick enough.

Also why no mention of the fact that Toews gets to play with other excellent defensive forwards like Sharp or Hossa? You don't think having one of those guys on Stamkos wing might help his 2 way game?
- sbroads24

Also why no mention that Toews doesn't play with the Art Ross winner? You don't think St. Louis would help Toews' offensive game?

I'm going by hat every person that picked Stamkos on here (including TB fans) have said. He scores more goals so he is better.
- robhawks

I really have no dog in this fight. I would love either player to be a Sabre obviously. I would just take the goal scorer first if I'm building a team

I'm going by what every person that picked Stamkos on here (including TB fans) have said. He scores more goals so he is better.

Read the comments.

The people who pick Toews have so much to add to their reasons.

By the way, nobody has answered my question yet......

Name me something Toews doesn't excel at?


Ok, here I'll help......I heard Toews glove hand isn't quick enough.
- robhawks

I agree 100%. Toews wouldn't bring us a Cup right away, and there is no way that team wouldn't have won both years they did with Stamkos in the place of Toews.
- BoltsFan4Life

Stamkos doesn't play defense as well, kill penalties as well, or take faceoffs as well, where Toews was by far the best Hawks center at all 3 this playoffs. Stamkos couldn't play the role Toews played on this cup team, no way they beat Boston, and probably not Detroit

Also why no mention that Toews doesn't play with the Art Ross winner? You don't think St. Louis would help Toews' offensive game?
- rollpards19

Toews has Kane? Another 1st overall pick. A very comparable player to St. Louis. A conn Smythe winner. What Stamkos does not have is Duncan Keith or Brent Seabrook

Lets try this a different way.


If you are in school and are required to do 10 essays.

1 essay you get 100 %. The other 9 essays you get 50's or maybe less.


Or


You hand in 10 essays that are all about 90% or higher.

Which situation is better for you?

Hahahaha. Sorry. Trying to think of ways to clarify.
- robhawks

None... i'm confused before the test.. I'd skip school and head to the beach with a case of beer.