As much as I like Tootoo and the sandpaper he brings to the Wings... I have to admit it's hard to justify his salary. If he were bigger and had more offensive upside (similar to what Martin LaPointe or McCarty was) then I'd say keep him.

I just do NOT want the Wings to waive or get rid of Eaves. That would be a huge mistake. He is a solid utility depth player and not expensive. When paired with Helm and Miller, that line is an excellent 4th line. I don't mind Emmerton since he's a center and has a tiny salary... but he might get a decent draft pick in a trade. However... I'll take keeping Eaves over Emmerton any day of the week.

What is annoying is having Bert and Samuellson taking up cap space and roster spaces. What a waste. If Bert can stay healthy and actually be effective then he can add something to the team.

I won't miss Filpula at all especially at the ridiculous salary Yzerman is paying him. Andersson has the potential to exceed what Fils was in every category... but we'll see how he turns out. But we need to keep Andersson at Center and not play him on the wing like they did Fils.
- Vladdie_Kon1

I don't think Anderson has a tonne of potential as a second liner who's expected to create offense. I do believe he has the potential to be an above average third liner. Very keen defensive skills!

I don't think Anderson has a tonne of potential as a second liner who's expected to create offense. I do believe he has the potential to be an above average third liner. Very keen defensive skills!
- jdd0001

Fils was an average 2nd liner (in terms of points) but was a good two way player. He was a soft player and basically a depth player. He had his best year playing the wing ! The difference is that Andersson makes the players around him better... especially speedy wingers like Nyquist and Tatar who can find open ice. He will definitely be a better setup man than Fils was. He's also bigger and plays with more of an edge. I'd say he could be a very solid 2nd liner from what I've seen in GR and Detroit. Time will tell if he can put up good points consistently in NHL.

What, exactly, do you think he brings? Because I just don't see what he does so well that helps a team actually win hockey games.

Fighting? I have yet to see any convincing argument that fighting has any meaningful effect on changing momentum, energizing team play, or helping teams win games. You can point to anecdotal evidence where this or that team made a comeback after a fight, but was it because of the fight? Neither my eyes nor any of the analyses I've seen really make a case for fighting being particularly meaningful in terms of influencing game outcomes.

Physical play? Tootoo throws a lot of big, exciting hits. You definitely notice him when he's on the ice. But does going out there and crashing into the other team's scrubs (since Tootoo doesn't play tough defensive minutes or line up against opponents' top lines) really translate into more goals for Detroit or fewer for the opposition? Again, I think the evidence -- both observational and statistical -- is very weak here.

Agitation? Tootoo is undeniably a very good agitator, who is able to draw penalties at a very high rate -- even higher than the rate at which he takes them. In the era for which these statistics are available (2007-08 to present), Tootoo has been able to draw an average of 0.63 more penalties than he takes per 60 minutes of even strength ice time, a very good rate.

But how many goals does that translate to over the course of a season? The answer: not much. At 9 minutes of even strength ice time per game over a full 82 games, Tootoo would be expected to draw 7.75 penalties more than he takes. Assuming the team is close league average on both the powerplay and the penalty kill (for my estimates, that's 17.5/82.5 efficiency), that translates into an expected advantage of just 1.36 net goals per season based on Tootoo's agitation skills. And that's assuming he plays 82 games; in practical terms the real number would be lower than that.

I just don't think Tootoo adds very much to this team. As said before, he doesn't score, he doesn't play good defense, he doesn't drive possession, he doesn't play on special teams.

If he were a better hockey player and could be trusted to play more minutes against better opponents, then the things he actually is good at (physical play, drawing penalties, agitating) might prove more valuable. But at 9 low-importance minutes per night against scrubs, I don't think those skills really translate into more wins in the standings.
- Sven22

Wow talk about a long post

Fighting I have seen games that a fight seemed to have changed the momentum of the game. Was it a fluke that it happened that way? Maybe, maybe not. No way of really knowing that by stats really and only the players could tell if it really does and I have heard some players mention that before. Having played also (not at the NHL level obviously) it can affect the energy and mood of the team from what I have experienced. One thing it can do is energize the crowd which in turn can energize the team. One thing about fighting is protecting teammates, responding to cheap shots on star players and keeping some of the other teams tougher/rougher players busy so they don't go after the skilled players to intimidate them or get them off their game. Wings don't have much in that department...Abdelkader doesn't fight much, Ericsson fights rarely too, same thing with Smith and Bertuzzi. Tootoo is the only one willing to do it more often. Is Tootoo great at it? Not really since most of the time he is fighting bigger guys. He's not really built to fight light heavyweights or heavyweights but the Wings don't really have anything on the roster that can come close to doing that job.


Physical Play He is one of the few forwards maybe aside from Abdelkader and Helm who hits hard enough to make the other teams defensemen notice and maybe get rid of pucks faster than they want to. Everyone else is just cream puff hits that wouldn't wear down my grandma or make her nervous when handling the puck with them coming down on the fore check. How he is used (against scrubs as you put it) is on the coach. Abdelkader got a whopping 5 points more than Tootoo this season and Tootoo didn't get to play with Datsyuk with top line minutes most of the season. Give that chance to Tootoo and who knows what happens...not sure he would do any less than Abdelkader after all Datsyuk could bounce a couple of shots off of him for goals too. Put him on a line with Helm and Abdelkader and you have a great forechecking line that can pound on the other team and create havoc and energy.


Agitation Not really a big concern, like you said it doesn't amount to a huge number of PP's but who knows it might end up in a powerplay once in a while that ends in a key goal for the team. If anything, it can put the focus on getting to him above playing the game for certain players and get them off their game.

Do I think he is worth 1.9 mil a year to play limited minutes or that he is a great enforcer...no but the problem is the Wings have nothing really that plays that type of role for them. You can say the Wings don't need it but I think those people that say that are going to be singing a different tune during the regular season when some teams goon it up with nobody on the Wings to respond especially if they go after Datsyuk, Zetterberg and players like that. I don't think as a whole the East is tougher than the West but certain teams have a better roster to goon it up in the East (Toronto, Boston) than most in the West...this was enough for Ottawa to trade for Kassian last season to help deal with those teams.

DCZ... you do make a very good point about the Wings not having somebody to be the Sheriff if somebody takes a run or cheap shot at one of the Wings star players. Wings have been lacking that for several years now... That's the only reason I'm open to Bert sticking around if he can actually stay healthy. It was good to see him drop the gloves with Webber when Webber took a cheap shot at Zetterberg in the playoffs. If he can get mean and nasty again then he can still be very effective in that role and actually put up some points. The problem is lack of roster spots available. Wings still need that young, big, tough power forward that will drop the gloves. Maybe someday Ken Holland will fill that hole and make some of us fans happy.

DCZ... you do make a very good point about the Wings not having somebody to be the Sheriff if somebody takes a run or cheap shot at one of the Wings star players. Wings have been lacking that for several years now... That's the only reason I'm open to Bert sticking around if he can actually stay healthy. It was good to see him drop the gloves with Webber when Webber took a cheap shot at Zetterberg in the playoffs. If he can get mean and nasty again then he can still be very effective in that role and actually put up some points. The problem is lack of roster spots available. Wings still need that young, big, tough power forward that will drop the gloves. Maybe someday Ken Holland will fill that hole and make some of us fans happy.
- Vladdie_Kon1

Bert sticks up for players which is nice and I like him playing with Datsyuk for that reason (and he has better hands than Abdelkader) but at his age and with his bad back, I don't really expect him to fight much since he never was a guy that fought a lot even in his prime. Since the Wings don't have that one guy that can take on anybody, having a couple of guys that can mix it up once in a while is a must imo. Take away Tootoo and that only leaves Bert (if he's healthy), Abs, Ericsson and maybe Smith and none of them are really built or skilled enough in fighting to really take on a heavyweight or even most light heavyweights...Ericsson has the size but at the same time I doubt Babcock wants to lose half of his top pair for 5 minutes often.

Last draft I was hoping the Wings could get lucky and draft Michael McCarron in the 2nd round but the Habs ended up taking him 25th in the first. The year before I was hoping they could get lucky and take Tom Wilson but the Wings had traded their 1st rounder for Quincey and he went to Washington a couple of picks before the Wings would have been drafting anyways. Those players are going earlier in the draft now which makes it harder for the Wings to draft one...their only hope might be to draft a big flawed player later and hope he rounds out his game but that's a bigger gamble than drafting skilled guys. Those type of players teams usually hold onto once they have them and they rarely hit the UFA market. I hope i'm wrong but I don't see the Wings getting that power forward anytime soon...but then again Holland thinks Franzen is a power forward so maybe we never will.

Wow talk about a long post
- dcz28

Yeah, I'm prone to those from time to time.

I'm skeptical of the deterrance argument. There may have been a time in NHL history when having a guy like Dave Semenko did legitimately prevent teams from targeting a guy like Wayne Gretzky with dirty tricks (I say "may" because I'm not convinced there were any fewer cheap shots in the 70s and 80s then there are today, even with a lot more fighting), but especially since the instigator rule was toughened in 1992 and suspensions got (albeit erratically) toughened in the last few years I don't see that as really being the case anymore.

I mean, Chara and Lucic were on the ice when Matt Cooke ended Marc Savard's career. Didn't seem to stop him. Kind of a cherry picked example, but the point is I don't think having a fighter really makes any of the league's punks think twice about running your guy. Because for the most part, the league's punks either 1) aren't afraid to fight in the first place, or 2) simply won't take the bait, which means there's nothing you can do to them.

Now, Tootoo is not really an enforcer; he has some hockey skills. I think he'd still be a finge NHL/solid minor leaguer even if he weren't a fighter or a pest. My issue is that I don't think he's one of Detroit's 12 best forwards and he makes almost $2 million, and I don't think the few kinds of skills he does add, while exciting and noticeable, make the team any more likely to actually win hockey games than giving that spot to, say, Eaves or Tatar or even Samuelsson. But that's just my opinion.

Also, I still don't think Abdelkader is a top 6 winger. I'd rather move him back to being a bottom six center and kick Emmerton to the curb.

Yeah, I'm prone to those from time to time.

I'm skeptical of the deterrance argument. There may have been a time in NHL history when having a guy like Dave Semenko did legitimately prevent teams from targeting a guy like Wayne Gretzky with dirty tricks (I say "may" because I'm not convinced there were any fewer cheap shots in the 70s and 80s then there are today, even with a lot more fighting), but especially since the instigator rule was toughened in 1992 and suspensions got (albeit erratically) toughened in the last few years I don't see that as really being the case anymore.

I mean, Chara and Lucic were on the ice when Matt Cooke ended Marc Savard's career. Didn't seem to stop him. Kind of a cherry picked example, but the point is I don't think having a fighter really makes any of the league's punks think twice about running your guy. Because for the most part, the league's punks either 1) aren't afraid to fight in the first place, or 2) simply won't take the bait, which means there's nothing you can do to them.

Now, Tootoo is not really an enforcer; he has some hockey skills. I think he'd still be a finge NHL/solid minor leaguer even if he weren't a fighter or a pest. My issue is that I don't think he's one of Detroit's 12 best forwards and he makes almost $2 million, and I don't think the few kinds of skills he does add, while exciting and noticeable, make the team any more likely to actually win hockey games than giving that spot to, say, Eaves or Tatar or even Samuelsson. But that's just my opinion.


- Sven22

Also, I still don't think Abdelkader is a top 6 winger. I'd rather move him back to being a bottom six center and kick Emmerton to the curb.

Totally agree about Abdelkader about NOT being a top 6 winger. He is not a good enough finisher to be on the top line or even the 2nd line. And I don't want him on the third line which would be Tatar, Nyquist, and Andersson due to their chemistry.

If Helm is not able to play then they can move him to the 4th line. If Helm (by some miracle) is able to play this season he can rotate him out with Miller and Eaves. Emmerton might be decent trade bait. What really stinks is that nobody will pickup up Samuelsson or Bert on waivers. Eaves would get picked up in a second. Miller just got resigned, so they won't put him on waivers. Tootoo is most likely going to be the odd man out... wonder if they will waive him. I just really hope they do not put Eaves on waivers... he's too good of an asset to lose.

Yeah, I'm prone to those from time to time.

I'm skeptical of the deterrance argument. There may have been a time in NHL history when having a guy like Dave Semenko did legitimately prevent teams from targeting a guy like Wayne Gretzky with dirty tricks (I say "may" because I'm not convinced there were any fewer cheap shots in the 70s and 80s then there are today, even with a lot more fighting), but especially since the instigator rule was toughened in 1992 and suspensions got (albeit erratically) toughened in the last few years I don't see that as really being the case anymore.

I mean, Chara and Lucic were on the ice when Matt Cooke ended Marc Savard's career. Didn't seem to stop him. Kind of a cherry picked example, but the point is I don't think having a fighter really makes any of the league's punks think twice about running your guy. Because for the most part, the league's punks either 1) aren't afraid to fight in the first place, or 2) simply won't take the bait, which means there's nothing you can do to them.

Now, Tootoo is not really an enforcer; he has some hockey skills. I think he'd still be a finge NHL/solid minor leaguer even if he weren't a fighter or a pest. My issue is that I don't think he's one of Detroit's 12 best forwards and he makes almost $2 million, and I don't think the few kinds of skills he does add, while exciting and noticeable, make the team any more likely to actually win hockey games than giving that spot to, say, Eaves or Tatar or even Samuelsson. But that's just my opinion.

Also, I still don't think Abdelkader is a top 6 winger. I'd rather move him back to being a bottom six center and kick Emmerton to the curb.
- Sven22

Obviously having a tough guy is not going to stop all cheap shots. Some by accident (bad judgement by the player in a split second) and some players (like you said) just won't care if they have to take some punches for it. I do think that it does stop some players from acting stupid or at least makes some pay for it after the fact. Take that out and all you have is the league policing or trying to keep guys in check for the cheap shots and we all know how inconsistent that can be and some players don't care that much about an unpaid vacation since some just keep doing the same things over and over even after they get suspended. Take out fighting and every clown that can't even fight will think they are tough and can do whatever they want without having to answer for it.


I do think Tootoo is overpaid especially for how he is used on the Wings. If he was making Emmerton money, I think a lot of fans would have less of a problem with his role on the team. I also think Babcock could make better use of him. My biggest problem with Sammy (aside from him being used on the point of the PP) is his salary. I just don't see him being worth 3 million on this team and I would rather he be gone and use that money and Quincey's money to bring in a better defenseman. There is lots of players I would rather have than Tootoo for that role but Holland for some reason chose Tootoo. I would take Chris Neil over him in a heartbeat but for now he is pretty much all they have for this role and take him out and the Wings are left with very little fighting toughness. I don't see Holland addressing this anytime soon and aside from Callahan (who is much like Tootoo) they don't really have any forward prospects that can play that role coming either.


We'll see this season but right now I think some will be wishing the Wings had more toughness during certain games once the game is already decided and they start going after certain players (likely skilled players since the Wings don't have many guys that fight) to take out their frustrations on.

Take out fighting and every clown that can't even fight will think they are tough and can do whatever they want without having to answer for it.
- dcz28

This is said a lot by a number of fans but I seriously question it.

If fighting really is an effective deterrent to cheap play and actually does police the game, wouldn't we expect that the times in NHL history where fighting was the most common (i.e., the 70s and 80s) to also be the cleanest and most honorable in terms of play? Yet I see little evidence that this is the case. Granted I'm not old enough to remember those days first hand, but what I read and hear and research suggests the opposite is actually true.

I tend to think fighting is a symptom of a weak talent pool. Back in the 70s when top-level pro hockey expanded from 6 teams to over 30 (NHL and WHA combined) in less than a decade, you had guys that would barely have cracked a junior roster in the mid 60s making it all the way to the NHL by the early 70s. Being a thug was a way to separate yourself from the glut of equally unskilled plugs gunning for the same roster spot. And because the other team was loading up on thugs (because there weren't enough actual good players to go around), you needed some too.

I think now that the talent level is much higher (and the punishments are much more strict), there's no longer a need for the unskilled thug. Granted it's one thing if you can fight AND play, but a designated fighter who can't keep up with the rest of the team isn't worth the roster spot in my view -- even if he's the only fighter you have. I just don't think, in 2013, having a fighter makes anyone any less likely to take liberties with your stars.

This is said a lot by a number of fans but I seriously question it.

If fighting really is an effective deterrent to cheap play and actually does police the game, wouldn't we expect that the times in NHL history where fighting was the most common (i.e., the 70s and 80s) to also be the cleanest and most honorable in terms of play? Yet I see little evidence that this is the case. Granted I'm not old enough to remember those days first hand, but what I read and hear and research suggests the opposite is actually true.

I tend to think fighting is a symptom of a weak talent pool. Back in the 70s when top-level pro hockey expanded from 6 teams to over 30 (NHL and WHA combined) in less than a decade, you had guys that would barely have cracked a junior roster in the mid 60s making it all the way to the NHL by the early 70s. Being a thug was a way to separate yourself from the glut of equally unskilled plugs gunning for the same roster spot. And because the other team was loading up on thugs (because there weren't enough actual good players to go around), you needed some too.

I think now that the talent level is much higher (and the punishments are much more strict), there's no longer a need for the unskilled thug. Granted it's one thing if you can fight AND play, but a designated fighter who can't keep up with the rest of the team isn't worth the roster spot in my view -- even if he's the only fighter you have. I just don't think, in 2013, having a fighter makes anyone any less likely to take liberties with your stars.
- Sven22

Hard to compare the game from then to now...I mean a lot of Scott Stevens hits were great back then and now a bunch would be suspensions. Some things that are considered cheap shots now, wouldn't of been back then and some things from the older days are completely gone now like bench clearing brawls among other things. Gretzky, Yzerman and others had McSorley, Semenko, Probert, Kocur to watch their backs and I think that did make a difference over the course of their careers to stop some players from taking cheap shots. It didn't stop them all but i'm sure these guys were glad they were there.

Like I said, the game has changed over the years and will continue to change. The days of guys that can only fight are pretty much gone. Now they have to be able to be grinders at least and soon enough they will have to be able to chip in offense on a more regular basis to be in the NHL but we are not there yet.

I don't think the punishments are more strict on everything and solve everything. Just look at the cheap shot Weber did to Zetterberg and the strict discipline he got(pretty much nothing). Pronger on Holmstrom ect... league discipline is still inconsistent at best. One player gets the book thrown at him for something (Torres) while another gets nothing for basically the same thing. Different standards for 3rd and 4th liners than for star players. Were you upset that Bertuzzi fought Weber for that shot, that McCarty went after Lemieux after he destroyed Draper's face, Probert on McGuire after he goes after Yzerman? Were you happy with the league punishments?

I don't think the league has their punishments or the same standards for everyone down yet so the need for guys to able to answer is still there and should continue to be there until they do. I doubt we will ever agree on everything about fighting since personally, I also like fights without needing a real reason for it to happen (staged ones off a faceoff).

Totally agree that the league needs to be much more consistent with their discipline. Ideally there would be some kind of table with clear guidelines and specific punishments (hit to the head = automatic suspension of x games; second offense y games, etc.) so everyone knew what the standard was. One guy making decisions on the fly clearly is not the answer.

I am enjoying this discussion. It's nice that civilized discourse exists somewhere on hockeybuzz.

Looks like the Wings will start training camp without Cleary... we can only hope Holland does not bring him back. Cleary would be wise to accept the offer that was on the table from Dallas (if it's even still there). Holland will need to shed at least two players. My pick would be Tootoo (put him on waivers due to his salary) and trade Emmerton for a draft pick.

The giant question mark is still whether or not Helm is really healthy and durable enough to play the full season. His status affects the entire roster. Wings really need him to be back at 100%. Still think it would be good for the Wings to have at least one big tough guy to add some sandpaper. Since nobody will claim Bert or Sammy they can sit on the bench. If Bert is healthy he may be able to contribute.

Anybody think it's possible that Holland could bring Brunner back at a reasonable salary ?? He's still unsigned.