No. But you implied that the Penguins somehow achieved more with Vokoun in net than they did Fleury. But they didn't. They still got bounced from the playoffs.

Again, every team tightens up on D when the backup goalie goes in. Why didn't they just address their lackadaisical defensive play while Fleury was in this past season? Or you know...three seasons ago in the playoffs...
- Kineada

The Penguins had not seen the Eastern Conference Finals since 2009. They had not even seen the 2nd round since 2010.

What was the variable that was different this past postseason?

Again the argument that the Penguins got "bounced from the playoffs" is weak. 29 teams get "bounced" from not winning a championship every year. Quick, Lundqvist, Rinne arent lesser goalies this year because of that.

As for the 2nd comment, that "backup" has only 2 goalies (Thomas/Rask) from the past 5 years ahead of him in EVSV%.

The Penguins had not seen the Eastern Conference Finals since 2009. They had not even seen the 2nd round since 2010.

What was the variable that was different this past postseason?

Again the argument that the Penguins got "bounced from the playoffs" is weak. 29 teams get "bounced" from not winning a championship every year. Quick, Lundqvist, Rinne arent lesser goalies this year because of that.

As for the 2nd comment, that "backup" has only 2 goalies (Thomas/Rask) from the past 5 years ahead of him in EVSV%.
- Ryan_Wilson

Oh. You want to cherry pick stats to prove your point. Ok.

Fleury has more Stanley Cups and Olympic gold medals than Vokoun. So he must be better.

Again, think what you want. I still contend that the Penguins have a tendency to play very sloppy team defense in front of Fleury, and Fleury takes the brunt of the blame from breakdowns that happen in those situations.

You are correct in bringing psychology into the equation though. In the sense that as a goalie, Fleury sees it as his responsibility to keep the puck out of the net, no matter WHAT the team is doing in front of him. If they're playing crappy D, then Fleury, and any goalie really, is going to start trying to do more and more in order to perform his 'job' and not let down his team. This, of course, often leads to the sort of meltdowns and mind-boggling bad plays we've seen Fleury suffer from over the last few years.

I've watched his team night in and night out from Section 226. They have to stop leaving Fleury out to dry as much as they do. He's good, but it doesn't seem any goalie in the NHL is THAT good anymore. Fleury's resurgence, if it is to happen, will start with an overall dedication to team defense by everyone on the ice. And by trading Letang.

Oh. You want to cherry pick stats to prove your point. Ok.

Fleury has more Stanley Cups and Olympic gold medals than Vokoun. So he must be better.

Again, think what you want. I still contend that the Penguins have a tendency to play very sloppy team defense in front of Fleury, and Fleury takes the brunt of the blame from breakdowns that happen in those situations.

You are correct in bringing psychology into the equation though. In the sense that as a goalie, Fleury sees it as his responsibility to keep the puck out of the net, no matter WHAT the team is doing in front of him. If they're playing crappy D, then Fleury, and any goalie really, is going to start trying to do more and more in order to perform his 'job' and not let down his team. This, of course, often leads to the sort of meltdowns and mind-boggling bad plays we've seen Fleury suffer from over the last few years.

I've watched his team night in and night out from Section 226. They have to stop leaving Fleury out to dry as much as they do. He's good, but it doesn't seem any goalie in the NHL is THAT good anymore. Fleury's resurgence, if it is to happen, will start with an overall dedication to team defense by everyone on the ice. And by trading Letang.
- Kineada

Wait do you seriously think Fleury is better because he won an olympic gold as a 3rd string goalie who saw next to no action, and none in the medal round? Or because he won a cup? Because Chris Osgood won what 3-4 cups, does that mean he's better than Lundqvist? It's a team sport.

I'd also love to hear your other opinions such as Trent Dilfer was better than Dan Marino, and how Mike Gartner has nothing on Craig Adams. Hell by your logic Mathieu Garon is better than Ryan Miller, Henrik Lundqvist, Miikka Kipprusoff, Evgeni Nabokov, and on down the line, you know, because he won
a cup.

Wait do you seriously think Fleury is better because he won an olympic gold as a 3rd string goalie who saw next to no action, and none in the medal round? Or because he won a cup? Because Chris Osgood won what 3-4 cups, does that mean he's better than Lundqvist? It's a team sport.

I'd also love to hear your other opinions such as Trent Dilfer was better than Dan Marino, and how Mike Gartner has nothing on Craig Adams. Hell by your logic Mathieu Garon is better than Ryan Miller, Henrik Lundqvist, Miikka Kipprusoff, Evgeni Nabokov, and on down the line, you know, because he won
a cup.
- schiefer466

My answer was a sarcastic reply to a post that cherry-picked one particular stat as a basis for an argument. It was more an exercise in showing that cherry-picked stats don't tell whole stories.

I understand that sarcasm doesn't translate well on the Internet.

Who's Trent Dilfer? Is that a NASCAR guy?

My answer was a sarcastic reply to a post that cherry-picked one particular stat as a basis for an argument. It was more an exercise in showing that cherry-picked stats don't tell whole stories.

I understand that sarcasm doesn't translate well on the Internet.

Who's Trent Dilfer? Is that a NASCAR guy?
- Kineada

Yep. I compared a "NASCAR guy" to an NFL quarterback. Because that makes sense.
And to say its a cherry picked stat is kinda dumb. It wasnt the basis for his argument but rather a fact that bolsters it. It's one of the most telling individual stats there is for a goalie. Like ERA to a pitcher or a QB rating, it's kinda an important stat. And the fact he is 3rd best amongst all the goalies to play over the last 5 years, shows he's not a typical backup. He's no Brent Johnson or Ty Conklin or Matthieu Garon. Where does fleury rank compared to vokoun in any major individual stat over the last 5 years?

Yep. I compared a "NASCAR guy" to an NFL quarterback. Because that makes sense.
And to say its a cherry picked stat is kinda dumb. It wasnt the basis for his argument but rather a fact that bolsters it. It's one of the most telling individual stats there is for a goalie. Like ERA to a pitcher or a QB rating, it's kinda an important stat. And the fact he is 3rd best amongst all the goalies to play over the last 5 years, shows he's not a typical backup. He's no Brent Johnson or Ty Conklin or Matthieu Garon. Where does fleury rank compared to vokoun in any major individual stat over the last 5 years?
- schiefer466

Listen Sparky, I don't care about Marinara sauce and DILFs. I'm a hockey fan, I don't give two poops about other sports. But you do what you want with your spare time, who am I to judge?

Again, stats, especially single stats, never tell the whole story. Take a look at Barrasso's stats. I bet they're worse than Fleury and Vokoun both. But he's also got more Stanley Cups than both of them put together, and at the end of the day, isn't that what REALLY matters in the NHL?

Facts are facts. The Penguins organization has said that Fleury is still their guy. I think I'll go with the opinions of some pretty damn sharp hockey minds over the denizens of the Hockey Buzz message boards any day.

Listen Sparky, I don't care about Marinara sauce and DILFs. I'm a hockey fan, I don't give two poops about other sports. But you do what you want with your spare time, who am I to judge?

Again, stats, especially single stats, never tell the whole story. Take a look at Barrasso's stats. I bet they're worse than Fleury and Vokoun both. But he's also got more Stanley Cups than both of them put together, and at the end of the day, isn't that what REALLY matters in the NHL?

Facts are facts. The Penguins organization has said that Fleury is still their guy. I think I'll go with the opinions of some pretty damn sharp hockey minds over the denizens of the Hockey Buzz message boards any day.
- Kineada

Marinara? DILF? sparky? What the hell are you talking about? I should have stopped at DILF. What you and a dead Tigers manager do with spaghetti sauce is something noone here needs to know about.

Again you bring up the championships. Was Barasso better than Richter? Nope. It's a team sport great individuals end up with less championships because of it. Bourque won 1 cup. Scuderi has 2. Ill take Bourque all day. Tyler kennedy and matt cooke have more cups than Kariya and Selanne combined. Again ill take the guys with less. To use cups as a be all end all argumet is asinine. And isn't that really just cherry picking a stat anyway? Because I coulda sworn you had some issues with that tactic.

Also, of course Shero and Bylsma will say Fleury is their guy. He's psychologically soft they have to say the right things. Also they still know they've got another option in goal and won't hesitate at all to use Vokoun if Fleury starts getting beat by pucks bouncing off the boards again come April.

a·bra·sive (-brsv, -zv)
adj.
1. Causing abrasion: scratched the stovetop with an abrasive cleanser.
2. Harsh and rough in manner: an unpleasant, abrasive personality.

Marinara? DILF? sparky? What the hell are you talking about? I should have stopped at DILF. What you and a dead Tigers manager do with spaghetti sauce is something noone here needs to know about.

Again you bring up the championships. Was Barasso better than Richter? Nope. It's a team sport great individuals end up with less championships because of it. Bourque won 1 cup. Scuderi has 2. Ill take Bourque all day. Tyler kennedy and matt cooke have more cups than Kariya and Selanne combined. Again ill take the guys with less. To use cups as a be all end all argumet is asinine. And isn't that really just cherry picking a stat anyway? Because I coulda sworn you had some issues with that tactic.

Also, of course Shero and Bylsma will say Fleury is their guy. He's psychologically soft they have to say the right things. Also they still know they've got another option in goal and won't hesitate at all to use Vokoun if Fleury starts getting beat by pucks bouncing off the boards again come April.
- schiefer466

So, in addition to being a Couch-Sitting All-Sports Super Statistician, you're also a Certified Competitive Psycho-Analyzer? Cool.

Tell you what. I'll just admit defeat. You win. Vokoun is much better than Fleury. That's why he's been bouncing around to different teams throughout his career. That's why he's been signed as a backup in Pittsburgh. If only Fleury would have done something useful like get out and score some goals, then Vokoun would have won a Cup too! And I'm sure the Penguins routinely resort to silly reverse-psychology mind-games with all their players, not just one playing as vital a position as goaltender! Gosh. I'm so grateful to be able to be schooled in hockey knowledge by an All-Sports Knower Of Things such as yourself. I'll be sure to let all my teammates I play hockey with and all the folks in the section I sit in at the arena know that I've been WRONG for so long, but the Hockey Buzz message board has set me straight! Fleury is awful!

a·bra·sive (-brsv, -zv)
adj.
1. Causing abrasion: scratched the stovetop with an abrasive cleanser.
2. Harsh and rough in manner: an unpleasant, abrasive personality.
- BulliesPhan87

haha These comments are going in circles.

Hockey new is slowly picking up but they are still a ways away. Premier League started Saturday so the lull isn't as bad for me now!

Wow. Looks like someone forgot their meds this morning.

Wow. Looks like someone forgot their meds this morning.
- Emperor Filonius

This is just how I pass away boring days at work personally!

So, in addition to being a Couch-Sitting All-Sports Super Statistician, you're also a Certified Competitive Psycho-Analyzer? Cool.

Tell you what. I'll just admit defeat. You win. Vokoun is much better than Fleury. That's why he's been bouncing around to different teams throughout his career. That's why he's been signed as a backup in Pittsburgh. If only Fleury would have done something useful like get out and score some goals, then Vokoun would have won a Cup too! And I'm sure the Penguins routinely resort to silly reverse-psychology mind-games with all their players, not just one playing as vital a position as goaltender! Gosh. I'm so grateful to be able to be schooled in hockey knowledge by an All-Sports Knower Of Things such as yourself. I'll be sure to let all my teammates I play hockey with and all the folks in the section I sit in at the arena know that I've been WRONG for so long, but the Hockey Buzz message board has set me straight! Fleury is awful!
- Kineada

When did I claim to be a psycho analyzer? I'm using the fact that fleury is seeing a sports psychologist to conclude that the organization and likely fleury himself think his deficiencies are mental as opposed to physical. If I'm wrong with that I'm sure you'll let me know.

I never claimed fleury was awful. Don't think anyone did. I know personally my point was just the fleury doesn't have the distinction of go to goalie completely locked up, and vokoun has shown not just last year but through his entire career that he is a more than capable goalie that a team can rely on in the playoffs.


And go ahead keep making dumb, sarcastic personal attacks and assumptions about someone, me, that you don't know. He sarcasm and hyperbole really make you look cool.

When did I claim to be a psycho analyzer? I'm using the fact that fleury is seeing a sports psychologist to conclude that the organization and likely fleury himself think his deficiencies are mental as opposed to physical. If I'm wrong with that I'm sure you'll let me know.

I never claimed fleury was awful. Don't think anyone did. I know personally my point was just the fleury doesn't have the distinction of go to goalie completely locked up, and vokoun has shown not just last year but through his entire career that he is a more than capable goalie that a team can rely on in the playoffs.


And go ahead keep making dumb, sarcastic personal attacks and assumptions about someone, me, that you don't know. He sarcasm and hyperbole really make you look cool.


- schiefer466

Yes. Vokoun has proven to be a clutch-performer in the playoffs. Would you be referring to his career total of three playoff wins in Nashville or the four he had in Wheeling?

haha These comments are going in circles.

Hockey new is slowly picking up but they are still a ways away. Premier League started Saturday so the lull isn't as bad for me now!
- kgrpitt

I've been playing weekly through the summer, so it hasn't been so bad. I'm more than ready to sit and watch capable players do the game justice, though.

Yes. Vokoun has proven to be a clutch-performer in the playoffs. Would you be referring to his career total of three playoff wins in Nashville or the four he had in Wheeling?
- Kineada

More the fact he had more series wins last year than fleury has bad in the last 4 years.

Tyler kennedy and matt cooke have more cups than Kariya and Selanne combined.
- schiefer466

Careful. We have a poster who believes that Matt Cooke is the Hercules of the NHL.

Careful. We have a poster who believes that Matt Cooke is the Hercules of the NHL.
- Ben37

Oh no you did not go there! Geez, no encouragement please!

should of made Matt Cooke your starting goalie

Steelers still suck.

Wait what?

Steelers still suck.
- powerhouse

I wouldn't read too much into anything yet. Preseason football is the biggest farce in professional sports.

That said, the line sucks haha