Not sure a single one of those names would be top 4 on the Blues. Prolly Smid instead of Leopold. Some of the left handed guys would have a shot, but the right hander's wouldn't even be dressed half the time, with us having Petro, Shatty, and Polak on the right already.
- Antilles

love how many fans of other teams don't know who EDM's best Dman is

You toss around the term Norris potential like an idiot. In the past 30 years only 14 guys have won the Norris Trophy, which includes first time winners in 4 of the past 5 seasons (that means only 10 in the 25 seasons prior).

Scott Niedermayer: 1 Norris
Chris Pronger: 1 Norris
Zdeno Chara: 1 Norris
Al MacInnis: 1 Norris

Shea Weber, Scott Stevens, Mark Howe, Larry Murphy, Phil Housley, Sergei Gonchar, Mike Green, Dan Boyle, Sergei Zubov, Borje Salming: 0 Norris Trophies

Winning a Norris trophy is even harder than getting into the Hall of Fame.
- KB3Point0

this ...most intelligent post I've read on this site to date

And outscoring them



But that was just responding to Ian's assertion that he'd be in the AHL for a couple years had the Canucks signed him like they really really wanted to.

Which is almost as perplexing as him saying Ference is a bottom pair on every team but the Oilers.
- robin_steele264

He is a top 4 d man (ference) on the majority of teams if not all teamsj

Calgary was just 28th in GA. Nice try.

And if Justin Schultz had signed in VAN you'd be calling him a #1D, Norris candidate
- TheNugeIsHuge

Actually, as AV was the coach of the Canucks last year, Schultz would have struggled to crack the lineup. Defensively he was more of a liability than Ballard. The offense he provided was great, but if you weren't responsible defensively for AV you didn't see the ice very often.

yes, we know. It's evident you didn't watch any games, but looked up his +- on the internet and assumed away. 95% of posters know you have nothing knowledgeable to say on the subject on any team that isn't VAN and when it is VAN, you're being a homer.
- TheNugeIsHuge

.............. and WTF is it that u do?

Yes, as a rookie playing #2 minutes for EDM. Somehow I knew you'd only refer to his +-. Bravo. You're now considered even dumber than Cloutier.
- TheNugeIsHuge

And how'd he do VS Vancouver? Seems to me for a No. 2 guy he didn't see much of Danny and Hank, and when he did he was ushally pinned deep in his zone chasing them (and that was jusy agianst Vancouver).

Kids got talent, but the kid is far from an elite NHL defencman. Sure he logs minutes, but he's not even the Oilers No. 2 guy.

doubtful.

Doesn't change my point. You think Frank Corrado will be a top pairing D. You'd be praising Schultz every blog for a year.
- TheNugeIsHuge

no one is saying he "WON'T" be good good.

What we are saying is he "ISN'T" there yet.

If I'm a coach with a minute to go and a one goal lead, I'dsure as heck be sending Frankie out before Justin.

love how many fans of other teams don't know who EDM's best Dman is
- TheNugeIsHuge

This ones on a tee for whoever wants it.

And how'd he do VS Vancouver? Seems to me for a No. 2 guy he didn't see much of Danny and Hank, and when he did he was ushally pinned deep in his zone chasing them (and that was jusy agianst Vancouver).

Kids got talent, but the kid is far from an elite NHL defencman. Sure he logs minutes, but he's not even the Oilers No. 2 guy.
- IanEsplen

???
5P in 4GP against VAN. Averaged about 22:30 in each game.

I wouldn't say he'll ever be an elite Dman. There's about 6-8 of those in the NHL. VAN doesn't have one.

Maybe he wasn't even the #2 guy because it was his rookie season? Naaah. Probly cuz hiz +- sux

Meh, if you are this completely unreasonable of a homer, suggesting a player who has never played a game in the NHL would be top pairing on one of the league's best defenses, or that one of the worst teams in the league has 6 defensemen who would be top 4 on one of the best teams in the league, you just aren't worth responding to.
- Antilles

Hmmm. Don't really want to waste my time on someone who just isn't picking up what I am laying down.

I am not saying you could replace your whole top 4 and be gravy. I am saying any ONE of those players could slot into your top 4 and you wouldn't even notice the slightest drop in production. In some cases, at a one for one sub, your top 4 could actually be improved.

But. Just to piss you off a bit more I gotta poke you a bit about J-bo.

I love how St. Louis fans seem to think J-bo is all great cause he played very well for the final 14 games of his contract year on a stacked team with one of the best coaches/systems in the league.

He was dog $%^& to decent during the previous 5 years for Calgary.

Now that he has his contract I hope he doesn't disappear...

Did he get an invite to the Olympic camp?

no one is saying he "WON'T" be good good.

What we are saying is he "ISN'T" there yet.

If I'm a coach with a minute to go and a one goal lead, I'dsure as heck be sending Frankie out before Justin.
- IanEsplen

and there you have it.

where does this guy fit? after or between Cloutier and Garth?

Hmmm. Don't really want to waste my time on someone who just isn't picking up what I am laying down.

I am not saying you could replace your whole top 4 and be gravy. I am saying any ONE of those players could slot into your top 4 and you wouldn't even notice the slightest drop in production. In some cases, at a one for one sub, your top 4 could actually be improved.

But. Just to piss you off a bit more I gotta poke you a bit about J-bo.

I love how St. Louis fans seem to think J-bo is all great cause he played very well for the final 14 games of his contract year on a stacked team with one of the best coaches/systems in the league.

He was dog $%^& to decent during the previous 5 years for Calgary.

Now that he has his contract I hope he doesn't disappear...

Did he get an invite to the Olympic camp?
- Aerchon

JBo's a fine Dman. I'd hoped EDM'd pick him up in free agency next year

JBo's a fine Dman. I'd hoped EDM'd pick him up in free agency next year
- TheNugeIsHuge

Perhaps I am exaggerating a bit.

He is a fine D-man.

I just think he is overpayed @ 5.4 and that him playing on your top pairing is a weakness. Peit is just good enough to cover for him so it wont matter. But he is not a #2 defenseman anymore if ever was.

???
5P in 4GP against VAN. Averaged about 22:30 in each game.

I wouldn't say he'll ever be an elite Dman. There's about 6-8 of those in the NHL. VAN doesn't have one.

Maybe he wasn't even the #2 guy because it was his rookie season? Naaah. Probly cuz hiz +- sux
- TheNugeIsHuge

Funny you bring up his inflated numbers against the Wolves in the "I don't give a crap Sunday night shinny game".

1 point in the games that mattered and very shelttered icetime.

That "among others" including people who have already won, or been close to a Norris like Alex Pietrangelo, Erik Karlsson, Drew Doughty....
- Antilles

um

Funny you bring up his inflated numbers against the Wolves in the "I don't give a crap Sunday night shinny game".

1 point in the games that mattered and very shelttered icetime.
- IanEsplen

alright so 1P in 3GP. Not in any way bad especially considering it includes his first NHL game.

20:52, 27:49, 19:36. Wouldn't call that sheltered. About 22:45 each game. Certainly wasn't playing 3rd lines in the first 2 games

Perhaps I am exaggerating a bit.

He is a fine D-man.

I just think he is overpayed @ 5.4 and that him playing on your top pairing is a weakness. Peit is just good enough to cover for him so it wont matter. But he is not a #2 defenseman anymore if ever was.
- Aerchon

Disagree. He's a fantastic option in the #2 spot.


5.4 pretty good price too.

alright so 1P in 3GP. Not in any way bad especially considering it includes his first NHL game.

20:52, 27:49, 19:36. Wouldn't call that sheltered. About 22:45 each game. Certainly wasn't playing 3rd lines in the first 2 games
- TheNugeIsHuge

He avg 17:39 ES and not much of that was against the top line of the other team (or at least when I watched him it wasn't)

He avg. 34 seconds and game killing penalties - that's pretty sheltered as well.

As a D, when you aren't asked to kill penalties or play against the other teams top guys, you are generally geting sheltered minutes.


Compare that with a guy like Dillion in Dallas who is playing 2:35 per game on the PK, ushally playing against the other team's top guys and posting +1 rating.

Hmmm. Don't really want to waste my time on someone who just isn't picking up what I am laying down.

I am not saying you could replace your whole top 4 and be gravy. I am saying any ONE of those players could slot into your top 4 and you wouldn't even notice the slightest drop in production. In some cases, at a one for one sub, your top 4 could actually be improved.

But. Just to piss you off a bit more I gotta poke you a bit about J-bo.

I love how St. Louis fans seem to think J-bo is all great cause he played very well for the final 14 games of his contract year on a stacked team with one of the best coaches/systems in the league.

He was dog $%^& to decent during the previous 5 years for Calgary.

Now that he has his contract I hope he doesn't disappear...

Did he get an invite to the Olympic camp?
- Aerchon

FFS, this is getting ridiculous, are we really arguing about Norris trophies and Norris potential with 20-22 year old players? It's a known fact that defensemen take a lot longer to reach their potential than forwards do, mostly because they have a TON more responsibilities to deal with. Most defensemen hit their primes around 27-29 when most forwards hit theirs at 24.

My Rankings For Pacific Team D's

1) LA: It's not even close, anytime you have a top 4 of Doughty, Voynov, Greene, and Regher, you're up there with the best in the NHL in terms of depth/skill.

2) Vancouver: Hamhuis is underrated, Bieksa is overrated, Edler is inconsistant and only Garrison is as advertised. All that being said, they all work well together and they all somehow manage to cover each other's flaws and with Tanev (provided he resigns) and Corrado in the mix, D is not the problem in Vancouver.

3) Phoenix: Like a few posters, I'm not as high on Yandle as Ian is, but OEL is the real deal and any team that employs a Hitchcock or Tippet as their coach is going to have an all-star calibre D no matter who's playing in their top 4.

4) SJ: If Phoenix wasn't in the division, I'd rank them 3rd, but they have no real all-star D, but they do have depth, so much so that they were able to move Brent Burns to the wing for added size.

5) EDM: Only because I feel that Smid and Petry are a very good pairing and the half-year experience in the NHL for J. Schultz will help him to better adjust. You can also argue that for a team that run and guns like the Oilers do, they were decent.

6) ANA: Who, beyond Beauchemin, is their best defenseman? I look at their depth chart and wonder how they did so well when most of them are no names.

7) CAL: You have Giordano, and then you have the rest, a rebuilding team that'll be about 5-7 years before they can be considered a playoff team.

He avg 17:39 ES and not much of that was against the top line of the other team (or at least when I watched him it wasn't)

He avg. 34 seconds and game killing penalties - that's pretty sheltered as well.

As a D, when you aren't asked to kill penalties or play against the other teams top guys, you are generally geting sheltered minutes.


Compare that with a guy like Dillion in Dallas who is playing 2:35 per game on the PK, ushally playing against the other team's top guys and posting +1 rating.
- IanEsplen

Special teams goals don't effect +/-

He avg 17:39 ES and not much of that was against the top line of the other team (or at least when I watched him it wasn't)

He avg. 34 seconds and game killing penalties - that's pretty sheltered as well.

As a D, when you aren't asked to kill penalties or play against the other teams top guys, you are generally geting sheltered minutes.


Compare that with a guy like Dillion in Dallas who is playing 2:35 per game on the PK, ushally playing against the other team's top guys and posting +1 rating.
- IanEsplen

likely because you watched 3-4 oiler games. he didn't for a lot of the season, but not many rookie Dmen partnered with someone as good as N Schultz do

I'm a huge fan of Dillon's. Don't have to talk him up to me. I hope you know PK doesn't affect one's +-. And +- is irrelevant too.

I mean I guess you could say it's like the Edler situation. Plays 5th toughest comp among VAN Dmen with over 20GP. Was a -5 on a team that was +6. For an offensive Dman didn't even have as many points as rookie Schultz

Is Mike Green a bad Dman? Played 5th toughest comp and only 27 more seconds of PK time than Schultz

Perhaps I am exaggerating a bit.

He is a fine D-man.

I just think he is overpayed @ 5.4 and that him playing on your top pairing is a weakness. Peit is just good enough to cover for him so it wont matter. But he is not a #2 defenseman anymore if ever was.
- Aerchon

Just a bit...

Ian you sure ruffled some coiler feathers today, good work.

Ian Esplen: Sizing up the Pacific- Defence
Sizing up the Pacific- Defence
- IanEsplen

1. Vancouver
2. LA
3. Phoenix
4. San Jose
5. Anaheim
6. Calgary
7. Edmonton