+/- does nothing to assess a players value...I'd take kovalchuk over most players in the league currently, yet his +/- blows...it is by far the most useless stat you can use to assess a players value...
- annoyance_101

Id agree with that statement. I dont think its useless but I do think it is very far down the totem pole when you compare a players worth. Hence why I put very little into the fact that Kessel is a career -36 player. I blame that on the leafs being a joke since he became a member of that team.

LOL. Just re-read that. My bad.
- Bluechip23

no problem. I must of read three times just to get my head around it. Kind of a Yogi Berra thing...

Id agree with that statement. I dont think its useless but I do think it is very far down the totem pole when you compare a players worth. Hence why I put very little into the fact that Kessel is a career -36 player. I blame that on the leafs being a joke since he became a member of that team.
- Bluechip23

I'd agree with that, I just don't think Kessel is more than a 1 dimensional player though...I'd say his SHG/SHA show how often he has been relied about in on the penalty kill...I'm a fan of guys that can be used in all sorts of situations...not guys that just score...and 400 points in 500 games, while good, is hardly HOF worthy...

When your name is Wayne Gretzky and you give the impression to a group of kids in a wheelchair that you do not give 2 poops about them, do you really believe that it helps the game grow to act that way? Why do you think Seguin was shipped out of Boston so fast? Could it be that he was an bumhole? Yes, not everything has to do with players on ice play...ESPECIALLY when are known as one of, if not the best player to ever play the game...and that was just 1 instance that happened with him, if that happens on a regular basis, do you really think that people are going to want to watch him play? I know that after I saw the way he acted, I intentionally did not watch him again after that...it was soon before he retired mind you but none the less...when you give people the impression that you just dont care about them, they aren't going to want to support you, and yes fans are the ones that pay the players salary through purchasing tickets...
- annoyance_101

You're going off on another sideways tangent again.

I completely agree that it's in the best interests of professional athletes to treat their fans with the utmost respect and go out of their way to sign autographs etc. I just think that line can be blurred by fans and their expectations are not always realistic.

These are still human beings with families and other responsibilities. To forever have a tainted view of Gretzky, who has done more to grow the game and probably signed more autographs than any other player in the history of hockey (aside from a few of the oldtimers like Howe and Orr) based on the fact he couldn't sign autographs for another 30 mins to hour because he wanted to spend time with his family, is just sad. It's sad to think that a guy can't spend time with his young family without fans disliking him for it.

Maybe he should have been more polite when it came to how he left, but in the grand scheme of things that seems like a pretty minor infraction. Certainly not something to detest the man over until the end of time.

I'd agree with that, I just don't think Kessel is more than a 1 dimensional player though...I'd say his SHG/SHA show how often he has been relied about in on the penalty kill...I'm a fan of guys that can be used in all sorts of situations...not guys that just score...and 400 points in 500 games, while good, is hardly HOF worthy...
- annoyance_101

I dont think we are putting him in the hall right now. All I said was that to score goals in the NHL is one of the hardest things to do. He has proven he is in that elite category in the current NHL. How many 25 yr olds have 185 goals over the last 10 years in the NHL? Not many thats for sure.

He is also just getting into his prime and over the last 3 yrs he has been a PPG in the NHL. Which in terms of offensive players that puts him in the top 10 when you look at just offense. He is just entering his prime right now and will have 4 - 7 years of elite level performance. Which could be another 600 - 800 pts and he will still be only 32 when that happens.

Yes he is a one dimensional player. I have never said otherwise.

If he continues at his current pace and all injuries aside he has a shot when he retires that is all.

You're going off on another sideways tangent again.

I completely agree that it's in the best interests of professional athletes to treat their fans with the utmost respect and go out of their way to sign autographs etc. I just think that line can be blurred by fans and their expectations are not always realistic.

These are still human beings with families and other responsibilities. To forever have a tainted view of Gretzky, who has done more to grow the game and probably signed more autographs than any other player in the history of hockey (aside from a few of the oldtimers like Howe and Orr) based on the fact he couldn't sign autographs for another 30 mins to hour because he wanted to spend time with his family, is just sad. It's sad to think that a guy can't spend time with his young family without fans disliking him for it.

Maybe he should have been more polite when it came to how he left, but in the grand scheme of things that seems like a pretty minor infraction. Certainly not something to detest the man over until the end of time.
- KB3Point0

Well my impression of him entirely changed after that day, I saw how other players treated the fans and they were nothing but great, but yes it did leave me disliking him as a person...on the ice however? still one of, if not the best player to play, no one can take that away from him, i was just saying my only experience with him...am i supposed to like him as a person if I've only met him once and that was my experience with the guy?

Forgot to X Kessel's numbers by 0.85 to account for playing the SE division more times.
- IanEsplen

Southeast, Esplen? Toronto?

I dont think we are putting him in the hall right now. All I said was that to score goals in the NHL is one of the hardest things to do. He has proven he is in that elite category in the current NHL. How many 25 yr olds have 185 goals over the last 10 years in the NHL? Not many thats for sure.

He is also just getting into his prime and over the last 3 yrs he has been a PPG in the NHL. Which in terms of offensive players that puts him in the top 10 when you look at just offense. He is just entering his prime right now and will have 4 - 7 years of elite level performance. Which could be another 600 - 800 pts and he will still be only 32 when that happens.

Yes he is a one dimensional player. I have never said otherwise.

If he continues at his current pace and all injuries aside he has a shot when he retires that is all.
- Bluechip23

Well this conversation has gone back and forth from talk about Kessel being one day in the HOF, and comparing him to guys like Getzlaf and Perry, Getzlaf and Perry are more important to their teams, the fact that they play on the penalty kill and kessel does not, speaks volumes as to why he should not get the same money that perry and getzlaf make...i think the ducks management are insane to give both of them nearly as much as crosby mind you, but none the less..i just don't think kessels nearly as important to the leafs as getzlaf or perry are to the ducks and shouldn't be paid as such

Southeast, Esplen? Toronto?
- TommyDeVito

Than someone in the west? Vancouver? although when Bure was playing, he oddly enough spent a ton of time playing in the SE...so...go home ian, you're drunk

Southeast, Esplen? Toronto?
- TommyDeVito

This thread is not really about the facts...

Its nice to know the Bruins took Hamill over Couture. Its not nice to know that Hamill is now a Canuck.

This thread is not really about the facts...
- 1970vintage

This entire SITE is not really about the facts

This thread is not really about the facts...
- 1970vintage

This entire website is nothing about facts.

+/- does nothing to assess a players value...I'd take kovalchuk over most players in the league currently, yet his +/- blows...it is by far the most useless stat you can use to assess a players value...
- annoyance_101

+/- absolutely helps assess a players' value, but it just can't be used on it's own. As I said you need context. How good is the team the player plays for? How good is their competition? How good is their goalie? How good is their offense? Lots of variables. The same way Corsi could be said to provide value. On it's own it's not going to be a good indicator of who the best players are, but it helps in the assessment.

Kovalchuk is an excellent example of why context is required, but he's also an example of how +/- over an extended period of time provides insight as to the player's contribution on the ice. Is Kovalchuk an excellent defensive player? No. Is he an excellent offensive player? Yes. Does he come back and backcheck strongly all the time? No. Of course you also need to put his +/- into the context of the teams he's played on. The Thrashers were awful for years. That has a negative effect on +/-.

Let's look at Todd Bertuzzi. 2004 he was on pace (he was suspended for something though...) for 20 goals, 51 assists and +25. The Canucks finished 1st in their division for the 1st time in 11 years. The next season (2006) he finished with 25 goals, 46 assists, but was -17. The Canucks finished 4th in their division. If you remember those years Bertuzzi was not nearly as dominant in 2006 as he was the previous season. His goals and assists were quite close though. His +/- was way off though. I'm just saying it can help assess a player's value.

This entire SITE is not really about the facts
- annoyance_101

lol, Beat me to it. good on yah

Its nice to know the Bruins took Hamill over Couture. Its not nice to know that Hamill is now a Canuck.
- vancity787

Why not? 20 games in the NHL should never be labeled a bust...he is still considered a prospect IMO, maybe not officially at this point but he still hasn't played enough to get a real gauge as to why teams give up on him so easily...

Why not? 20 games in the NHL should never be labeled a bust...he is still considered a prospect IMO, maybe not officially at this point but he still hasn't played enough to get a real gauge as to why teams give up on him so easily...
- annoyance_101

Well being a local, and seeing him play against my buddies in a lot of games I know hes talented, But at what level.

He has good vision, But I just don't see him being a fulltime nhl'er. Perhaps in limited capacity if he's willing to change his game into a checking/grinding roll.

Well my impression of him entirely changed after that day, I saw how other players treated the fans and they were nothing but great, but yes it did leave me disliking him as a person...on the ice however? still one of, if not the best player to play, no one can take that away from him, i was just saying my only experience with him...am i supposed to like him as a person if I've only met him once and that was my experience with the guy?
- annoyance_101

Definitely not saying you need to like him, but one incident shouldn't diminish the decades of effort he's put in. Especially if the one incident was in order to spend time with his family.

+/- absolutely helps assess a players' value, but it just can't be used on it's own. As I said you need context. How good is the team the player plays for? How good is their competition? How good is their goalie? How good is their offense? Lots of variables. The same way Corsi could be said to provide value. On it's own it's not going to be a good indicator of who the best players are, but it helps in the assessment.

Kovalchuk is an excellent example of why context is required, but he's also an example of how +/- over an extended period of time provides insight as to the player's contribution on the ice. Is Kovalchuk an excellent defensive player? No. Is he an excellent offensive player? Yes. Does he come back and backcheck strongly all the time? No. Of course you also need to put his +/- into the context of the teams he's played on. The Thrashers were awful for years. That has a negative effect on +/-.

Let's look at Todd Bertuzzi. 2004 he was on pace (he was suspended for something though...) for 20 goals, 51 assists and +25. The Canucks finished 1st in their division for the 1st time in 11 years. The next season (2006) he finished with 25 goals, 46 assists, but was -17. The Canucks finished 4th in their division. If you remember those years Bertuzzi was not nearly as dominant in 2006 as he was the previous season. His goals and assists were quite close though. His +/- was way off though. I'm just saying it can help assess a player's value.
- KB3Point0

I'd agree, but the example you used about Bertuzzi wouldn't be a great one simply due to the fact that the entire team was a mess after the moore incident...not just bertuzzi...as I've been saying +/- is more of a team stat, not individual

Well this conversation has gone back and forth from talk about Kessel being one day in the HOF, and comparing him to guys like Getzlaf and Perry, Getzlaf and Perry are more important to their teams, the fact that they play on the penalty kill and kessel does not, speaks volumes as to why he should not get the same money that perry and getzlaf make...i think the ducks management are insane to give both of them nearly as much as crosby mind you, but none the less..i just don't think kessels nearly as important to the leafs as getzlaf or perry are to the ducks and shouldn't be paid as such
- annoyance_101

Lets talk about Gretzky being a d*ck some more. I love it when our heroes are torn down.

I'd agree, but the example you used about Bertuzzi wouldn't be a great one simply due to the fact that the entire team was a mess after the moore incident...not just bertuzzi...as I've been saying +/- is more of a team stat, not individual
- annoyance_101

I think that you absolutely need to take both things into consideration, but Bertuzzi was a big reason the team was in such disarray that season. By no means the only reason, but he played a big part of it. He was much more of a floater that season, which was somewhat telling in his +/-.

Definitely not saying you need to like him, but one incident shouldn't diminish the decades of effort he's put in. Especially if the one incident was in order to spend time with his family.
- KB3Point0

Well its my only experience with the guy...I'm not necessarily saying he was like that all the time, but I lost a lot of respect for him as a person after that...it wasn't just that he wanted to spend time with his family, its that he just wanted to gtfo out of there the other players brought their family out to meet the kids...I haven't got the slightest clue about them personally other than that day...I don't believe I met anyone from that team again after that. But it just wasn't a good experience...and I can't say "I'm sure he's a nice guy out of the one time that I met him" because that would be a lie, I'm NOT sure he's a nice guy out of that experience...so why would i wanna say that? lol as i said his on ice talents cant be taken away from him...

I think that you absolutely need to take both things into consideration, but Bertuzzi was a big reason the team was in such disarray that season. By no means the only reason, but he played a big part of it. He was much more of a floater that season, which was somewhat telling in his +/-.
- KB3Point0

I blame Naslund. Get in there and defend yourself. Same goes for the twins.

I think that you absolutely need to take both things into consideration, but Bertuzzi was a big reason the team was in such disarray that season. By no means the only reason, but he played a big part of it. He was much more of a floater that season, which was somewhat telling in his +/-.
- KB3Point0

He had a specific reason to float around, a lot of players did that, the year following, did you realize that Naslund never played the same because of Steve Moores hit on him? that also had something to do with the team getting screwed up so badly after that incident...in fact that probably had more to do with it than Bertuzzi himself as a player...Naslund was more important to that line than Bertuzzi in their prime...

I blame Naslund. Get in there and defend yourself. Same goes for the twins.
- bloatedmosquito

Meh, Nazzy had Bert and Jovo for a lot of his career. He didn't have to do that kinda shyt. That's why Kassian is best with the twins.