LOL - ouch, I am deeply offended!

Let's go back to this new coach theory of yours....
please again explain how Grabovski, who is better at every facet of the game, doesn't fit RC's system as well as Bozak?

I played hockey for many years (still do but only with overweight guys who can't seem to play more then 30 seconds without coughing up a lung) at a pretty high level. I have never ever ever known a player that beat a player out at all points of a hockey game that couldn't play as well as another lesser player for any given coach. I wonder, what does Bozak have in him that makes him play better under RC's system then Grabs......please explain?
- Cooshie

You're still baiting this, go to sleep.

I've said it 4 times now (re:comprehension), I'm not arguing the better fit, that was the other fella. For the last time. Wasn't me.

I've made my case, trying to get things in your head is admittedly to tough. Go to sleep.

WOWOWOWOWOWOW

A whole 3 teams are interested in Grabovski? Holy cow...what a hot commodity!
OBVIOUSLY!!

HAHAHAHAHA
- Cooshie

that's more than were interested in Bozak. Only 1 team inquired about him prior to July 5th.


gotta ask.. when Grabo signs for more money than Bozak...again... what's that say about his value as a player?

Well when you are watching the playoffs and we are on the powerplay, and the guy can't win ONE (frank)ing faceoff in their zone and the puck gets cleared, geezus frustrating as (frank) i tell you!
- Mapleleafs_91

I got nothing here....no bozak defense on this whatsoever.

I wanted to rip my TV off the wall and stomp on it everytime he lost a defensive zone faceoff.

well he's a young fella... I give him a pass. And seems he and I are usually on the same side of the fence on players so usually on the same side of the argument as well.
- Big_Lightnin

He's a young fella? He comes off as that old guy who always has Jeff Dunhams arm up his arse.

Bolland is signed for only one year. If a first line center is acquired, at the end of the season, then Bozak slides into Bolland's spot. There is the possibility of an improved Gardiner, that blossoms into the next Letang. Before you all laugh, the raw talent is there and if it comes together, he becomes a lethal weapon against many of the other teams in the east. Boston had their hands full with his skating with the puck on transition, during the playoffs. They backed in a hell of a lot more, once the Leafs started using his immense skating talent. He just needs to get stronger and learn how to handle the forecheck, then he becomes a dangerous player. Team USA seems to believe so, since they included him on their roster.
- PrinceLH

Woah woah woah, dont be too hasty here. Bolland was acquired because he is defensively responsible in his own end. He can easily be resigned next year, no need to toss him aside and let him go. Im sorry but i hate when people think all we need is a LW, C, and a RW to play one line. Centers can easily shift to the wing, which bolland has done lots of times on the hawks. Boston is a prime example why they are so strong at center. They have centers on the wings because they have so many centers, if one gets tossed out, they have just as good of a chance to win the faceoff. You're telling me a 3rd line of Bolland Bozak Kulemin would not be enticing?

Actually i believe gardiner will be a top defender in the league eventually, and rielly once he is developed.

We are more defensively responsible in the end with bozak over grabo. Grabo was going to be gone eventually and not kept. His contract is big, and once we get a more appropriate center, grabo would have no use even then. #1 will be filled eventually, kadri will have #2, bozak will have #3
- Mapleleafs_91

But his argument included Grabo being better defensively.
No one on here is debating if Grabo is more offensively gifted - that would be just dumb.

LOL - ouch, I am deeply offended!

Let's go back to this new coach theory of yours....
please again explain how Grabovski, who is better at every facet of the game, doesn't fit RC's system as well as Bozak?

I played hockey for many years (still do but only with overweight guys who can't seem to play more then 30 seconds without coughing up a lung) at a pretty high level. I have never ever ever known a player that beat a player out at all points of a hockey game that couldn't play as well as another lesser player for any given coach. I wonder, what does Bozak have in him that makes him play better under RC's system then Grabs......please explain?
- Cooshie

roomates with Kessel for 1

but I wonder, what does Bozak lack that makes him unable to put up as many goals or points as Grabo over the last 4 years, despite playing more minutes with better linemates?

The answer is talent.

But his argument included Grabo being better defensively.
No one on here is debating if Grabo is more offensively gifted - that would be just dumb.
- Cooshie

Ive never ever seen grabo do something good defensively maybe they mistake him for kulemin since kulemin does all the work all i see is grabo turn over the puck but obviously he is better than bozak offensively

But his argument included Grabo being better defensively.
No one on here is debating if Grabo is more offensively gifted - that would be just dumb.
- Cooshie

pretty sure you were trying to make that argument.

But ok, evidence of Grabo being bettere defensively is that he got almost ALL the top line matchups against opponents, and almost exclusively defenisive starts all year long.

When opposition put their top line out, Carlyle put Grabo out, everytime. so did Wilson.

Bozak's a career -42, Grabo's a career -7... and he was -10 this year, so a plus player prior to this season.

Not a great stat on it's own, but comparing teamates it is relevant. And Grabo played against top line opposition the last 3 seasons. Bozak did not, but he did play with the highest scoring player on the team

that's more than were interested in Bozak. Only 1 team inquired about him prior to July 5th.


gotta ask.. when Grabo signs for more money than Bozak...again... what's that say about his value as a player?
- Big_Lightnin

First question, if a team inquired about Bozak before July 5th, wouldn't that have been tampering?

Second question, Do you think the salary a player gets is the indicative of how many teams were interested? So, would it not be fair to say that if Grabovski accepted 4.25mill there would be a hell of a lot more teams wanting him then just 3?
By the way, how much did Clowe sign for - how many teams do think were interested in him at that price.

pretty sure you were trying to make that argument.

But ok, evidence of Grabo being bettere defensively is that he got almost ALL the top line matchups against opponents, and almost exclusively defenisive starts all year long.

When opposition put their top line out, Carlyle put Grabo out, everytime. so did Wilson.

Bozak's a career -42, Grabo's a career -7... and he was -10 this year, so a plus player prior to this season.

Not a great stat on it's own, but comparing teamates it is relevant. And Grabo played against top line opposition the last 3 seasons. Bozak did not, but he did play with the highest scoring player on the team
- Big_Lightnin

You're comparing plus and minuses but that does not justify grabo being a defensive hockey player. Arguably kulemin did most of the work since they are on the same line and since the goals for and goals against count for 3 players on that line right?

roomates with Kessel for 1

but I wonder, what does Bozak lack that makes him unable to put up as many goals or points as Grabo over the last 4 years, despite playing more minutes with better linemates?

The answer is talent.
- Big_Lightnin

So the Leafs shelled out something in the neighborhood of $35 million and downgrade their center depth in hopes that this will attract Kessel to resign?

BRILLIANT!!!

He's a young fella? He comes off as that old guy who always has Jeff Dunhams arm up his arse.
- joel878

ya I think there were some 19-ish references a while ago. but it's possible that was jbold. There was a while where I was mixing them up.

So the Leafs shelled out something in the neighborhood of $35 million and downgrade their center depth in hopes that this will attract Kessel to resign?

BRILLIANT!!!

- Cooshie

Pretty much but trust once we get a better center, who is better than bozak and grabo, everyone will be happy.

pretty sure you were trying to make that argument.

But ok, evidence of Grabo being bettere defensively is that he got almost ALL the top line matchups against opponents, and almost exclusively defenisive starts all year long.

When opposition put their top line out, Carlyle put Grabo out, everytime. so did Wilson.

Bozak's a career -42, Grabo's a career -7... and he was -10 this year, so a plus player prior to this season.

Not a great stat on it's own, but comparing teamates it is relevant. And Grabo played against top line opposition the last 3 seasons. Bozak did not, but he did play with the highest scoring player on the team
- Big_Lightnin

Only thing I did was post a 3yr trend of their careers on pts and +/- to show that one was trending up while the other down. I have stated a couple times that Grabovski is the better offensive player - I have also stated that offense alone doesn't make the better all around hockey player.

People pick and choose what they want to read and then regurgitate partial posts to create a bogus point.

So the Leafs shelled out something in the neighborhood of $35 million and downgrade their center depth in hopes that this will attract Kessel to resign?

BRILLIANT!!!

- Cooshie

Don't forget wasted the chance to rid the team of another poor contract at the same time.

This was my angle. I'm not even getting into the (frank)ing reasoning. It was a poor management decision. A bad one. And it will haunt the team down the road.

Pretty much but trust once we get a better center, who is better than bozak and grabo, everyone will be happy.
- Mapleleafs_91

I don't think anyone believes that Bozak isn't just a placeholder until we get a better center - be it though trade or Kadri.

You're comparing plus and minuses but that does not justify grabo being a defensive hockey player. Arguably kulemin did most of the work since they are on the same line and since the goals for and goals against count for 3 players on that line right?
- Mapleleafs_91

Never said it did, but it does justify him being better defensively than Bozak. And Carlyle appernetly agrees.

Hell Bozak has NEVER had a + season in the NHL. This year was Grabo's first minus season as as LEaf, and he plays against harder matchups consistently the last 3 seasons.

Why are we wasting our time debating something that's already done and buried? The season will start and everyone will be following the new and improved Leafs lineup, to see how we stack up against the elite teams. Game one against the Habs will be a bloodbath to start. The Habs didn't like getting beaten up by the Leafs and then the Sens and brought in Parros. Expect a brawlfest, trying to send a message to the rest of the eastern conference that they're not getting pushed around next year. They'll try, but will find out pretty quickly, that adding one tough guy, to take on a team with more team toughness will not work in their favour. Last year, they overachieved and I have a feeling that they're going to fall back to earth and possibly out of the playoffs.

pretty sure you were trying to make that argument.

But ok, evidence of Grabo being bettere defensively is that he got almost ALL the top line matchups against opponents, and almost exclusively defenisive starts all year long.

When opposition put their top line out, Carlyle put Grabo out, everytime. so did Wilson.

Bozak's a career -42, Grabo's a career -7... and he was -10 this year, so a plus player prior to this season.

Not a great stat on it's own, but comparing teamates it is relevant. And Grabo played against top line opposition the last 3 seasons. Bozak did not, but he did play with the highest scoring player on the team
- Big_Lightnin

Plus minus is very flawed. Bozak wins far more of his draws in the defensive zone, and was relied upon to make up for an improving, but still very flawed defensive player in Kessel.

Also Grabo was beat up like crazy in the playoffs. I love the guys fight and effort but he was getting smashed and it showed in his numbers. Ended up 0-2-2 -10 in the 7 games. Agian loved his fight but he was pretty awful defensively in that series and pedestrian offensively. Don't overstate his value.

Don't forget wasted the chance to rid the team of another poor contract at the same time.

This was my angle. I'm not even getting into the (frank)ing reasoning. It was a poor management decision. A bad one. And it will haunt the team down the road.
- joel878

I disagree, I think Bozak is getting better and will be an asset. I also think that with the salary cap going up, his contract will be tradable.

Joel, at least we agree on something - Gardiner will be playing with the Leafs come Christmas.

Only thing I did was post a 3yr trend of their careers on pts and +/- to show that one was trending up while the other down. I have stated a couple times that Grabovski is the better offensive player - I have also stated that offense alone doesn't make the better all around hockey player.

People pick and choose what they want to read and then regurgitate partial posts to create a bogus point.
- Cooshie

well Carlyle feels he's better defensively, as evidenced by the way he was used.

So if he's better offensively, and he's better defensively... what's left?

well Carlyle feels he's better defensively, as evidenced by the way he was used.

So if he's better offensively, and he's better defensively... what's left?
- Big_Lightnin

Please explain?

Plus minus is very flawed. Bozak wins far more of his draws in the defensive zone, and was relied upon to make up for an improving, but still very flawed defensive player in Kessel.

Also Grabo was beat up like crazy in the playoffs. I love the guys fight and effort but he was getting smashed and it showed in his numbers. Ended up 0-2-2 -10 in the 7 games. Agian loved his fight but he was pretty awful defensively in that series and pedestrian offensively. Don't overstate his value.
- TheLeafsInsider

Cause he was matched up against the Krejci line, their best offensive unit.

I"m not overstating his value, just pointing out that clearly, Randy Carlyle thinks he's better defensively, or he would not have used him the way he did.

And we are in agreement he is better offensively.

Please explain?
- Cooshie

he had more defensive starts than Bozak. Grabo was matched up against the other teams top offensive line consistently all season, and in the playoffs.

I'm not saying he did a great job, but Carlyle kept putting him out there in that situation.

Why would he do that if he felt Bozak was better defensively and Grabo was better offensively? wouldn't it make more sense to switch them? Something Carlyle never did? He didn't, because Bozak is not as sound defensively as many like to believe.

This is why the PK system consisted of "ok bozak, win the faceoff then get the (frank) off the ice as fast as you can"