Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.... you can't just look at guys you think are better and say the other guy doesn;t deserve that amount. you have to look at how/when the contract was signed.
- burn

You also have to look at how to win a cup and Dion at 7 million doesn't leave room for the depth necessary based on what he brings to the table.

This year too my friend
- fidopro

No cheating. Guess which is which before you look it up.

Plaxer X: 9 goals, 28 points, -4, 65 PIM, 91 BkS, 25:10 TOI (3:06 SH TOI)

Player Y: 9 goals, 28 points, -2, 48 PIM, 90 BkS, 25:55 TOI (1:55 SH TOI)

Phanuef was better because of goaltending?? Ummm that makes no sense.
- burn

Thank god Shea Weber -2 had Rinne and Doughty +4 had Quick..... we should be able to trade Fanson and Fraser for those two....

No cheating. Guess which is which before you look it up.

Plaxer X: 9 goals, 28 points, -4, 65 PIM, 91 BkS, 25:10 TOI (3:06 SH TOI)

Player Y: 9 goals, 28 points, -2, 48 PIM, 90 BkS, 25:55 TOI (1:55 SH TOI)
- Leeman4Gilmour

I don't have to check it. One makes the top pair of Team Canada, the other stays home and watch the game on TV.
By the way, one team finished 6th in scoring, the other one 29th. And that's not just because of 1 dman...

No cheating. Guess which is which before you look it up.

Plaxer X: 9 goals, 28 points, -4, 65 PIM, 91 BkS, 25:10 TOI (3:06 SH TOI)

Player Y: 9 goals, 28 points, -2, 48 PIM, 90 BkS, 25:55 TOI (1:55 SH TOI)
- Leeman4Gilmour

x phaneuf
y weber

Thank god Shea Weber -2 had Rinne and Doughty +4 had Quick..... we should be able to trade Fanson and Fraser for those two....
- jribout

Ha ha, read fidopro's last post.

Thank god Shea Weber -2 had Rinne and Doughty +4 had Quick..... we should be able to trade Fanson and Fraser for those two....
- jribout

oops forgot Pietrangelo 0

I don't have to check it. One makes the top pair of Team Canada, the other stays home and watch the game on TV.
By the way, one team finished 6th in scoring, the other one 29th. And that's not just because of 1 dman...
- fidopro

Yes, and one started in his own zone more often 5-on-5, played with lesser teammates, and played against more talented opponents.

Weber has indeed been better more recently which gives him the edge. But to act like there's some vast gulf of ability between them is absurd.

One finished 8th in Norris voting, while one finished 11th, which is right where both guys should have been. Now, let's imagine a season where Phaneuf is the one who gets a try with a top-end, top-pairing guy...

I don't have to check it. One makes the top pair of Team Canada, the other stays home and watch the game on TV.
By the way, one team finished 6th in scoring, the other one 29th. And that's not just because of 1 dman...
- fidopro

Keep your stupid arguments coming

2009-10 Dion - 2 leafs 29th in goals against
2010-11 Dion -2 leafs 23rd in goals against....

No one on here is saying he will make the Olympic team but he is better than some idiots give him credit for.

Yes, and one started in his own zone more often 5-on-5, played with lesser teammates, and played against more talented opponents.

Weber has indeed been better more recently which gives him the edge. But to act like there's some vast gulf of ability between them is absurd.
- Leeman4Gilmour

So Weber doesn't start in his own end 5 on 5 and never plays againts more talented opponents?
Would you take Spurgeon, Brodin, Scandella, Stoner.... before Franson, Gunner or any other Leafs?

Get real.

Keep your stupid arguments coming

2009-10 Dion - 2 leafs 29th in goals against
2010-11 Dion -2 leafs 23rd in goals against....

No one on here is saying he will make the Olympic team but he is better than some idiots give him credit for.
- jribout

Of course. But to compare him with Weber?

So Weber doesn't start in his own end 5 on 5 and never plays againts more talented opponents?
Would you take Spurgeon, Brodin, Scandella, Stoner.... before Franson, Gunner or any other Leafs?

Get real.
- fidopro

Did I ever say that? My point is that Phaneuf played in more difficult situations with lesser teammates against better players.

This is objectively true, even if it hurts your feelings.

Did I ever say that? My point is that Phaneuf played in more difficult situations with lesser teammates against better players.

This is objectively true, even if it hurts your feelings.
- Leeman4Gilmour

Explain that to me. Take your time.
Look up the MINN roster and tell me their D-core is better than yours (as you seem to think since Dion plays with lesser teammates).
Tell me about more difficult situations. I'm curious.

You also have to look at how to win a cup and Dion at 7 million doesn't leave room for the depth necessary based on what he brings to the table.
- aminnes

No evidence to support this.

Explain that to me. Take your time.
Look up the MINN roster and tell me their D-core is better than yours (as you seem to think since Dion plays with lesser teammates).
Tell me about more difficult situations. I'm curious.
- fidopro

a) Weber plays for Nashville.

b) Here are all the stats to support everything I've said:

http://www.behindthenet.c...9+30+32+33+34+45+46+63+67

Knock yourself out. I'm not going to get into a long winded debate about the veracity of mathematics. They settled that issue several centuries ago.

Did I ever say that? My point is that Phaneuf played in more difficult situations with lesser teammates against better players.

This is objectively true, even if it hurts your feelings.
- Leeman4Gilmour

But to say he's anywhere near Weber, I mean guys thats insane. If so why did Calgary trade him, and traded him so swiftly that other GMs said they had no idea he was even on the block? If he's that good, they keep him, they moved him because they realized his price tag wasn't living up to his game, and in a cap world that won't work. Obviously Calgary went out and wasted money anyway, but to put him anywhere in the league of the Webers and Charas of the world is seeing blue i'de say.

Of course. But to compare him with Weber?
- fidopro

I think the point of the argument was not to compare Dion with Weber but to suggest that because Dion is not plus 30 does not mean he is not an elite/very good defenseman (depending on your definition of elite) A lot of very good defenseman end up with low plus minus.... some pretty bad/average defenseman end up with pretty good plus minus.....

Kadri was 26th in plus minus and another +5 in the playoffs.... Does that make him an elite defensive forward? I think not

Weber plays for Nashville.
- Leeman4Gilmour

Yeah, my bad, same question, replace MINN by NASH.
I was looking at something else.

I think the point of the argument was not to compare Dion with Weber but to suggest that because Dion is not plus 30 does not mean he is not an elite/very good defenseman (depending on your definition of elite) A lot of very good defenseman end up with low plus minus.... some pretty bad/average defenseman end up with pretty good plus minus.....

Kadri was 26th in plus minus and another +5 in the playoffs.... Does that make him an elite defensive forward? I think not
- jribout

He got a selke vote.

But to say he's anywhere near Weber, I mean guys thats insane. If so why did Calgary trade him, and traded him so swiftly that other GMs said they had no idea he was even on the block? If he's that good, they keep him, they moved him because they realized his price tag wasn't living up to his game, and in a cap world that won't work. Obviously Calgary went out and wasted money anyway, but to put him anywhere in the league of the Webers and Charas of the world is seeing blue i'de say.
- aminnes

One guy finished 8th best in the league. One finished 11th.

Weber had ever so slightly better numbers, but when you look at those numbers in context, I'd say it was a virtual wash statistically last year.

Why is this this getting some people so hot and bothered? Is it just cognitive dissonance?

I think the point of the argument was not to compare Dion with Weber but to suggest that because Dion is not plus 30 does not mean he is not an elite/very good defenseman (depending on your definition of elite) A lot of very good defenseman end up with low plus minus.... some pretty bad/average defenseman end up with pretty good plus minus.....

Kadri was 26th in plus minus and another +5 in the playoffs.... Does that make him an elite defensive forward? I think not
- jribout

+/- are good to compare players on a same team. That's it, that's all.

a) Weber plays for Nashville.

b) Here are all the stats to support everything I've said:

http://www.behindthenet.c...9+30+32+33+34+45+46+63+67

Knock yourself out. I'm not going to get into a long winded debate about the veracity of mathematics. They settled that issue several centuries ago.
- Leeman4Gilmour

I don't care much for stats. But you didn't explain to me how Franson or Gunner are worst teammates than Josi or Klein, or (frank)in Hal Gill !!

I think the point of the argument was not to compare Dion with Weber but to suggest that because Dion is not plus 30 does not mean he is not an elite/very good defenseman (depending on your definition of elite) A lot of very good defenseman end up with low plus minus.... some pretty bad/average defenseman end up with pretty good plus minus.....

Kadri was 26th in plus minus and another +5 in the playoffs.... Does that make him an elite defensive forward? I think not
- jribout

There isn't really a way to prove I think on either side. Some guys see him a certain way and some don't, thats it. Hockey is partly stats, and i use them too but when push comes to shove guys view things in different ways. It's like the Bernier thing, Nonis and or Leweike must like him, I for one saw it as pointless, all we can do is wait and see. Time will tell with Phaneuf either way.

Agree to disagree. I like what I see in Gunnerson, and Franson in particular. And I just wanted to say, about that other comment, wasn't trying to cause a stir - I got lambasted for a long time by guys in here for saying I liked the deal for Kessel... Lambasted. All the time, everyone ripped me. It's not like I get to go back and rip guys now right? I was the biggest fool around, and now it's not like i get to go calling all these guys fools. The majority opinion rules these threads thats for sure.
- aminnes

Lambasted?

One guy finished 8th best in the league. One finished 11th.

Weber had ever so slightly better numbers, but when you look at those numbers in context, I'd say it was a virtual wash statistically last year.

Why is this this getting some people so hot and bothered? Is it just cognitive dissonance?
- Leeman4Gilmour

8th best by a series of subjective votes. Your opinion is just as valid as mine or some guy who writes columns. Proof is in the pudding. Weber I would say shows how much better he is on the ice all the time. As buddy said, Webers team was second last in goals for, put them say 15th, he's probly a plus 15 at least. I cant even believe we're talking Weber Dion in the same sentence, I'm just shocked right now.