when judging a players merit.. you need to look at who he matches up against

play phaneuf against third and fourth lines with PP time and i guarantee you he will produce an absurd amount of offense.

but then you would have guys who have no business defending the guys like crosby trying to do just that.
- Dozzer

Totally agree.

The difference between a #1 defenseman being called "dominant" or "a bum" is that the "dominant #1" has a slightly positive +/-, while the guy who gets crapped on is slightly negative.

When Phaneuf was a top 3 defenseman in this league, he was right around +5, +10, +12... Now he's a -4 and getting ripped to shreds.

If he could play against the talent he does and manage to be a plus player, he'd be in Norris contention. I believe that had Phaneuf been a few points better on his plus/minus, he would have finished 5th or 6th in Norris voting.

It's not a big jump for a guy who has proven before that he can do it. In a contract year, he just might.

Hey, guys, the way I see it, lets see them do it. Pay him 7x7 or whatever crazy number he's gonna get, roll him out there 30 minutes a game and see if the Leafs win a cup. When they make the conference finals or something you can all call those of us who don't think he's worth that idiots, I'm fine with that. I hope if they keep him it happens quite frankly. Just remember, you were all the same guys saying how terrible the Kessel deal was and we now see that fruition of that deal...
- aminnes

you need to drop the holier than thou attitude right now

Totally agree.

The difference between a #1 defenseman being called "dominant" or "a bum" is that the "dominant #1" has a slightly positive +/-, while the guy who gets crapped on is slightly negative.

When Phaneuf was a top 3 defenseman in this league, he was right around +5, +10, +12... Now he's a -4 and getting ripped to shreds.

If he could play against the talent he does and manage to be a plus player, he'd be in Norris contention. I believe that had Phaneuf been a few points better on his plus/minus, he would have finished 5th or 6th in Norris voting.

It's not a big jump for a guy who has proven before that he can do it. In a contract year, he just might.
- Leeman4Gilmour

he's a work in progress.. the defensive side of things are always the hardest to learn. carlyle will be good for him.

and i'm no fan of phaneuf... but i look at it objectively

it's a team indicator before a player indicator. to use it in an argument of somebody's skill is so wrong it's completely reaching. I hate #3 but I know the +/- ain't worth poop
- weirdoh

It's certainly part team, no doubt, but the best guys have great plus minus for a reason, and they play against top lines too, and score in similar point totals. I would agree somewhat if the rest of the team had crap plus minus, but they don't anymore - he's the only d man outside of liles with a bad plus minus, the team doesn't suck anymore, so why still a minus? He is valuable as a number 2 guy, as I've been saying for 2 years, but saying that he can't be paid top 5 money - he just can't if this team is to succeed with him. Otherwise he must be moved.

you need to drop the holier than thou attitude right now
- Dozzer

don't think he was playing that card. (frank). the way L4G goes on about people hating #3 I feel like posting what this fella did. he's right. why not just cave in? ill eat my crow if he turns into what some think he is.

Keith and Seabrook make less than 6 each. Subban, Franson, Voynov, Beauchemin, Hamhuis, Larsonn, just go down the list. ALl making less than 6 million.
- aminnes

Keith isn't a comparison because he signed a 13 year deal that is not illegal. If you take the first 8 years (today's max) he's 7.6Mil cap hit. Not even close to the comparison you're trying to make.


Suban??? Franson?? Larsson is crap and on an ELC??


Your list is hilarious. Not even close.

too lazy to ban

- Dozzer

Speaking of ban, who's Eric?

Hi

Keith isn't a comparison because he signed a 13 year deal that is not illegal. If you take the first 8 years (today's max) he's 7.6Mil cap hit. Not even close to the comparison you're trying to make.


Suban??? Franson?? Larsson is crap and on an ELC??


Your list is hilarious. Not even close.
- burn

Even at 7.6 merans Dions worth 5. You sertiously think Dion is worth 7 if he's at 7.6?

Hey, guys, the way I see it, lets see them do it. Pay him 7x7 or whatever crazy number he's gonna get, roll him out there 30 minutes a game and see if the Leafs win a cup. When they make the conference finals or something you can all call those of us who don't think he's worth that idiots, I'm fine with that. I hope if they keep him it happens quite frankly. Just remember, you were all the same guys saying how terrible the Kessel deal was and we now see that fruition of that deal...
- aminnes

Wow!!!


And who's saying play him 30 a night??? The guys speaking on his behalf want a partner for him so he isn;t carrying all the weight.

You're making zero sense.

It's certainly part team, no doubt, but the best guys have great plus minus for a reason, and they play against top lines too, and score in similar point totals. I would agree somewhat if the rest of the team had crap plus minus, but they don't anymore - he's the only d man outside of liles with a bad plus minus, the team doesn't suck anymore, so why still a minus? He is valuable as a number 2 guy, as I've been saying for 2 years, but saying that he can't be paid top 5 money - he just can't if this team is to succeed with him. Otherwise he must be moved.
- aminnes

in with you. he's not worth top dollar. but the points a d man puts up are more important than anything else. that's what he'll be paid for. the sad truth as we've seen from the Norris is that pts are the way to go.

Keith isn't a comparison because he signed a 13 year deal that is not illegal. If you take the first 8 years (today's max) he's 7.6Mil cap hit. Not even close to the comparison you're trying to make.


Suban??? Franson?? Larsson is crap and on an ELC??


Your list is hilarious. Not even close.
- burn

Franson may be a good comparison. Don't forget he's only 25.
Agreed for Subban though, he's head and shoulder above Dion.

don't think he was playing that card. (frank). the way L4G goes on about people hating #3 I feel like posting what this fella did. he's right. why not just cave in? ill eat my crow if he turns into what some think he is.
- weirdoh

it was the tone of the post i didnt like

also, i personally believe he needs improvement.. i'm not denying that.. but he isnt as bad as he is being made out to be either.

thats all i am trying to say

Keith isn't a comparison because he signed a 13 year deal that is not illegal. If you take the first 8 years (today's max) he's 7.6Mil cap hit. Not even close to the comparison you're trying to make.


Suban??? Franson?? Larsson is crap and on an ELC??


Your list is hilarious. Not even close.
- burn

would you give subban 7+?

Wow!!!


And who's saying play him 30 a night??? The guys speaking on his behalf want a partner for him so he isn;t carrying all the weight.

You're making zero sense.
- burn

Many have said he is a number 1 because he plays so many minutes. He can't get a partner unless he takes a serious pay cut, how is this hard to understand.

would you give subban 7+?
- weirdoh

Certainly not, but he's every bit as good as Phaneuf.

Speaking of ban, who's Eric?
- gravyface

the main guy.. why?

Are you kidding? Horton has concusion and shoulder issues, and got a 7 year deal. All those guys are overpaid. The analysts can lik a d in my opinion, overpaid, every single one of them.
- aminnes

What does that tell you if you think every single one of them is overpaid?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

don't think he was playing that card. (frank). the way L4G goes on about people hating #3 I feel like posting what this fella did. he's right. why not just cave in? ill eat my crow if he turns into what some think he is.
- weirdoh

The thing is that he was already that player.

It's not like some people are expecting him to magically accomplish something totally new. It's not like we're expecting a guy like Gunnarsson to suddenly become Lidstrom.

Phaneuf has all the tools to be a top defenseman in this league and needs a few adjustments to return to top form.

I don't think we're going to do better for less $$$ without paying out the arse in a trade. If there were some move out there to drop Phaneuf and make us better, then let's go for it. But I have yet to hear one sane idea.

it was the tone of the post i didnt like

also, i personally believe he needs improvement.. i'm not denying that.. but he isnt as bad as he is being made out to be either.

thats all i am trying to say
- Dozzer

I know what you didn't like. but I've done the same. he's frustrating to talk about...#3 that is.

Even at 7.6 merans Dions worth 5. You sertiously think Dion is worth 7 if he's at 7.6?
- aminnes

Keith PPG career .51

Phaneuf career PPG .57

Many have said he is a number 1 because he plays so many minutes. He can't get a partner unless he takes a serious pay cut, how is this hard to understand.
- aminnes

if liles wasnt on the books right now.

there is your money for a solid number two shut down guy

it was the tone of the post i didnt like

also, i personally believe he needs improvement.. i'm not denying that.. but he isnt as bad as he is being made out to be either.

thats all i am trying to say
- Dozzer

He isn't bad!!!! He just isn't a top 5, 7 million dollar player! And if we want a better partner, he cannot make that kind of money, and he's going to want it, so they have to trade him. They are in a crap spot with him, it's no ones fault, it's just the way of the cap. I love Dion at 5 million, all over it, but we all know he's gonna get huge money and they simply cannot give it to him.

if liles wasnt on the books right now.

there is your money for a solid number two shut down guy
- Dozzer

Why they don't just waive the guy...

I know what you didn't like. but I've done the same. he's frustrating to talk about...#3 that is.
- weirdoh

as are all the big money players who come through toronto

i guarantee if HB was around back in the roberts tucker sundin haydays those guys would of been unfairly criticized as well

that being said.. i wouldnt cry if the leafs moved 3 at all.